Consensus matchup chart

Thelo · February 2, 2010, 9:12pm

Thanks guys. FYI, the characters I had the least info on by far are Bison, Blanka and Sagat. There’s no surprise that everyone are surprised at the Bison scores, I had to guess a lot in his matchups or look at the Eventhubs one, just to fill the chart. And I’m very unfamiliar with these characters myself.

I’d appreciate if, when you give a rating, you are explicit in how that rating works. Most of the time we can guess from context, but it’s often unclear which side is which.

Good examples:

**- Ryu 7 - 3 Honda

Ryu - Honda is 7-3
7-3, Ryu’s advantage**

Bad examples:

**- It’s 7-3 Ryu

It’s 7-3**

I’ll update the chart shortly. :china:

Coth_X · February 2, 2010, 9:50pm

What about hp srk’s new arc? I haven’t used ken in awhile, but won’t hp srk tame reaction dives and jump jabbing?

Kuroppi · February 2, 2010, 10:29pm

I’m not a Dictator player either so I can’t really comment on whether his ratings are accurate or not. But I am also surprised he is so low because I consider him one of the strongest in the game.

But what I have observed about him is that all his matchups seem to be winnable especially with his “ToD” capabilities. And this seems to be backed up by the chart so far. All of his numbers are fours, fives and sixes so this suggests he doesn’t have any tough matches (nor does he have any matches that he is supposed to dominate). Either he is sort of an anomaly and goes against the chart, his ratings are all off, or maybe a lot of us (myself included) are overrating him.

WhatsNext12 · February 2, 2010, 11:51pm

^^^any macthup is winnable but to say dic is one of the strongest becuase his TOD is wrong. yea it is very strong and a game winning combo but by all mean is not something to rely on.

and mackdaddi hit it bout right. cept i think chun and dj may be a little more difficult. def agree about t.hawk, id rather play geif anyday. and maybe this is just personal experince but id say ken is the harder macthup then ryu. no safe jump or meaty attacks means all u can do is cross over and watch it wiff.

Kuroppi · February 3, 2010, 12:15am

Well, I’m not saying he’s a strong character because of his ToD. You’re misinterpreting my post.

It seems like a lot of people consider him a strong character though. I mainly base it on the fact that he doesn’t appear to have any “bad” matchups. His ToD allows him to ‘steal’ a victory at any moment, which is nice for him. A lot of characters don’t have that ability at the ease of which he does.

skankin_garbage · February 3, 2010, 12:29am

Ryu: 3.5-6.5 Ryu Adv.

This match was already 6-4 Ryu, but now it’s even harder to deal with corner fireball traps.

Ken: 4-6 Ken Adv.

Safer Jab and Strong SRKs, a farther-reaching Fierce SRK, and a more difficult time with corner fireball traps made this one change pretty drastically, in my opinion.

Guile: 5-5

This one changed from ST in a lot of smaller ways. Guile has more tools to deal with Chun, and she can’t get consistently good damage from her super against Guile. It’s still manageable, though.

E.Honda: 6-4 Chun Adv.

It’s easier for Honda to get in, but I still don’t think it’s THAT easy. I think there are new things to look for in this match, but I don’t think it got any better or worse for either character in the grand scheme of things.

Dhalsim: 6-4 Chun Adv.

Chun can’t deal as much damage with her super, and her old Neckbreaker was really good in this match, I think. On the other hand, Dhalsim can’t combo into super anymore, and the noogie trap is much easier to deal with. So, I think this match stayed in the same place.

Blanka: 6-4 Chun Adv.

Well, you can’t deal as much super damage anymore, but that’s the only thing that I think is harder for Chun. Nothing Blanka got really helped in this match, so while it’s easier for Blanka, I think the difference is negligible.

Zangief: 7-3 Chun Adv.

I think the way that Chun zones in this match makes it so that Gief’s changes aren’t that useful. The faster Banishing Punch helps sometimes, but otherwise this matchup hasn’t really moved anywhere I think.

Fei Long: 4-6 Fei Adv.

Fei’s new LK Chicken Wing wrecks this match for Chun, because it’s no longer safe to throw fireballs in that range. It’s a lot easier for Fei to corner Chun, and she doesn’t have a good way out of the corner. Whoever gets their offense going in this match first usually wins. Fei, though, accomplshes it easier than Chun.

Dee Jay: 5-5, maybe 4-6 Dee Jay Adv.

This match doesn’t feel any worse…but, it sure sounds worse on paper, so I wonder if I just have yet to meet a Dee Jay that can really show me the full extent of how this match has changed? Chun’s super was a big deal in the match, and it’s weaker now. On top of that, Dee Jay can do his crossup combos easier, and even has a new, easier potential dizzy combo. This match seems like it should be harder for Chun, and yet, I haven’t had a harder time with this match in STHD.

Cammy: 6-4 Chun Adv., maybe 5-5

I wrote 6-4 Chun, but I don’t know much about this match. I know it was considered 6-4 Chun in ST. I think that the new Backfist doesn’t help much, and the risker Thrust Kick is bad for Cammy. On the other hand, I haven’t played many Cammy players who are awesome with Cannon Drill pressure, so I don’t feel like I have enough information to definitively speak on this matchup.

T.Hawk 6-4 Chun Adv.

So I know that Hawk players these days seem to think this match is gloriously easy, but that’s ridiculous. For one, Hawk Dive is not even dangerous against Chun anymore, because the round is no longer over if you get hit by it. For two, it’s easier to escape Hawk’s tick throws now, so even if I do mess up big time, I’m not screwed. And finally, you can (and always could) zone Hawk with like three moves: C.Mk, S.Mk, and Chundouken. How this match could be disadvantageous to Chun is beyond me.

Balrog: 5-5

All in all, both parties got weaker, but not in any way that changes their overall gameplan in this matchup. So, I think this one stayed about the same.

Vega: 6-4 Chun Adv.

This one seems like it should be easier for Chun, but as far as I know, she has no good wall dive counters while grounded, so she still has to risk being knocked down every time if she wants to try and queel wall dive spam. I should also note that I’m TERRIBLE at this matchup, so I’m open to being completely wrong about this.

Sagat: 4-6 Sagat Adv.

I think the dynamic of this match has changed a lot, but it still remains bad for Chun. You can now jump in on Sagat (thank God), but that’s about all that got better. The super deals inconsistent damage to Sagat, and while it’s harder to deal with corner fireball traps from Ryu and Ken, it’s now virtually impossible against a Sagat player that’s paying attention. So, in the end, while I think the way the match plays out is different, Sagat still has the advantage.

M.Bison: 6-4 Chun Adv.

I think this is mostly the same (that is, just plain bad for Bison), but I wonder if it’s gotten better enough to move from 7-3 to 6-4? Devil’s Reverse is pretty awesome as an escape, and Chun’s Lower priority Lightning Legs allows Bison to hit Chun out of them clean with Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kicks. Granted, it’s not consistent, but it trades/wins a LOT more often, so even if you accidentally do a Psycho Crusher/Scissor Kicks right into Chun’s Lightning Legs, it has a much better chance of working out for Bison, now.

Thelo · February 3, 2010, 12:36am

T.Hawk v Vega
Orig chart: 3-7
Kuroppi: 3-7
gridman: 4-6

Stay at 3-7 for now

M.Bison v Balrog
Orig chart: 4-6
Mackdaddi: 5-5

New rating: 4.5-5.5

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1hitparry · February 3, 2010, 12:44am

Thanks for updating and taking our input in to consideration. Looking at how many people have contributed you’ve definitely put a lot of work into compiling everything into a neat chart. Also, my rating on Ken vs. Boxer is up for debate. I personally get stuck in the same situation over and over again so there might be something I’m overlooking.

Mackdaddi · February 3, 2010, 12:45am

I think what throws him in the rankings is that he really lives or dies off of his specific advantages and disadvantages in a match, and the swing between the two is much more marked than the rest of the cast. He’s the exact opposite of the definition of an “all rounder”. He doesn’t have any really good matchups, or any really bad ones, just really good and really REALLY bad situations that he can get himself into in each one, which is why it’s tough to classify him

Take ryu as an example. I consider ryu to be the best all round character in the game. He’s not phenomenal at anything in particular, he has some strengths and some weaknesses, but he’s pretty much comfortable playing in attack, defence, zoning, being zoned…wherever. He’s a workhorse, he plugs away and earns his wins without anything too flashy, but it’s also tough put him in a REALLY sticky situation.

Dictator, on the other hand, is kill or be killed. It’s all or nothing with him, so if a smart player who knows how and when to use his normals and counters, and especially has a handle on his opponent’s tactics and gameplan uses him he can terorize a lot of the cast and do a lot of tricky, flashy, shenanigan type stuff that you really have to be on your toes for, because there’s always the possibility of him getting in and getting a window for a TOD combo and it’s game over. On the other hand, if somebody knows how to play against him and knows how to exploit his weaknesses (vulnerable to crossups, lack of attacking reversals, weak grounded anti air game, useless in the corner) he can get fairly heavily hammered and there often isn’t a thing he can do about it.

To put it another way, i think he’s mid tier because he has phenomenal offence capabilities, that are easily near the top of the pack when he’s played on the attack by a sharp, matchup savvy player, but he also has massive holes in his defensive game that other characters don’t have that balance that out. For example, He has no reversal, so you can jump in on him all day long. There’s only one other character in the game who has the same issue (sim) and HE has one of the best defensive and keepaway games in the game.

I’ve had days where nobody can touch me with dictator, and i feel like he’s the best character in the game by a mile, and i’ve had days where i get so badly messed up and can do nothing about it that i think i’m wasting my time and will never be able to compete at a higher level with him purely because i’m battling against a set of stupidly designed character limitations. I doubt there are too many other choices of main that carry the same issue.

Kuroppi · February 3, 2010, 1:06am

Awesome work, Thelo!

Battosai · February 3, 2010, 1:24am

Sorry but that match guile vs rog is 7-3 in rogs favor. Vega is like 8-2 vs guile in claws favor. and the chun vs guile is 6-4 in chuns favor. All of those characters have to tools to counter and rape guile. guile vs ryu is not 5.5 its 6-4 in ryus favor

VirtuaFighterFour · February 3, 2010, 1:29am

Except that almost every top Dictator in Japan learned to play this exact way for ST (until Taira came long in the last few years). Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo. He wins more matches using Dictator’s cross ups (and DJ’s and Claw’s crossups as well) than all other players. YuuVega even jumps RIGHT AT people to land a huge combo because he knows that the risk/reward is heavily in Dictator’s favor. He also sits still doing nothing for half of the round sometimes just waiting for that one chance to land a huge combo because that it his ENTIRE game plan. Don’t believe me?

[media=youtube]bhSWzWnMNO4&#t=42s[/media]
[media=youtube]2IjwteY-eS8&#t=55s[/media]
[media=youtube]rleSUmdwanc&#t=1m50s[/media]
[media=youtube]4h5yye_FeYE&#t=4m50s[/media]
[media=youtube]zpyW-LS1GwM&#t=1m42s[/media]
[media=youtube]AdvXOB2Ml-M&#t=1m37s[/media]
[media=youtube]T1cJwEijh38&#t=55s[/media]

Just trawl through YouTube for matches of YuuVega to see just how amazingly effective relying on huge combos and dizzy can be for Dictator.

xcfrisco · February 3, 2010, 2:06am

That’s really cool. I thinks it weird that Vega is always ranked so high but at most majors its Ryu/Balrog cleaning house.

SG10x · February 3, 2010, 2:16am

Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B

Blanka 3 4 4 4.5 - 7 5 5 6.5 4.5 4 3 2 4 4 5

I don’t know why, but alot of your match ups with Blanka in the initial chart were higher than they should be, a lot higher in some cases. I know you compiled it off a list you saw from other players, but I can’t understand why they came out to be so high. I’d like to see what other players think

SG10x · February 3, 2010, 2:16am

Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B

Blanka 3 4 4 4.5 - 7 5 5 6.5 4.5 4 3 2 4 4 5

I don’t know why, but alot of your match ups with Blanka in the initial chart were higher than they should be, a lot higher in some cases. I know you compiled it off a list you saw from other players, but I can’t understand why they came out to be so high. I’d like to see what other players think

WhatsNext12 · February 3, 2010, 2:25am

VirtuaFighterFour:

Except that almost every top Dictator in Japan learned to play this exact way for ST (until Taira came long in the last few years). Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo. He wins more matches using Dictator’s cross ups (and DJ’s and Claw’s crossups as well) than all other players. YuuVega even jumps RIGHT AT people to land a huge combo because he knows that the risk/reward is heavily in Dictator’s favor. He also sits still doing nothing for half of the round sometimes just waiting for that one chance to land a huge combo because that it his ENTIRE game plan. Don’t believe me?

[media=youtube]bhSWzWnMNO4&#t=42s[/media]
[media=youtube]2IjwteY-eS8&#t=55s[/media]
[media=youtube]rleSUmdwanc&#t=1m50s[/media]
[media=youtube]4h5yye_FeYE&#t=4m50s[/media]
[media=youtube]zpyW-LS1GwM&#t=1m42s[/media]
[media=youtube]AdvXOB2Ml-M&#t=1m37s[/media]
[media=youtube]T1cJwEijh38&#t=55s[/media]

Just trawl through YouTube for matches of YuuVega to see just how amazingly effective relying on huge combos and dizzy can be for Dictator.

yes ive seen all those. i know yuuvega is the master TOD but often as much the risk dosent pay off. but imo taira is the better bison and does not rely on the TOD (u kinda already said this).

Aqua_Snake · February 3, 2010, 2:46am

Wow Thelo, you’ve outdone yourself! Good stuff!

I thought I should point out you had me down in the Zangief vs. Fei matchup as 7-3, but I said 6-4 Fei’s favor. Of course there was SO many numbers you were trying to compile so of course it was a small error.

And Norieaga I have to play you again. Fei vs. Cammy 2.5-7.5? :looney:

I know Cammy has a slight advantage against Fei, but that high?!

I haven’t played you in a long time so I’d love for you to show me that Fei has it that bad.

x64 · February 3, 2010, 3:46am

Not everyone speaks japanophile.

Norieaga · February 3, 2010, 4:11am

Sure, I’d be up for that! I consider facing Fei my best matchup and the numbers reflect that. Reasons for my high advantage towards Cammy:

Fei can be thrown easy after a light CW and proper spacing
CW goes over drill, equals free throw
Fei’s hitbox is good, I don’t have trouble landing my cross-up as I do on another characters
st. fierce is useful
I can hooligan whiffed flame kicks

If there’s anything I fear in this match its the Rekka Ken. However, I pretty much spend the whole matchup looking for that move so I’m used to it. But its very deadly, one of the reasons I think Fei shits on Cammy otherwise.

VirtuaFighterFour · February 3, 2010, 4:24am

http://www.google.com/search?q=okizeme&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Not everyone is a moron also.