Consensus matchup chart

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
41

For this post I’m going to list the arranged diagram that James added to Thelo’s first post in this thread to be used as a reference. The second diagram in my post will be an altered version of the original based on my opinions of each match up. Any numerical value I change from the original chart will be color coded. If a character moves in rank from the original diagram then I will list a ± followed by a number indicating how many places that character changed. Lastly I’ll leave a brief writeup about why I changed certain numbers and why I think some characters needed to be shifted.

Changed Claw vs Ken to 6-4 (from 5.5-4.5). I think that Claw’s ground game can easily net him victories in 6 out of 10 matches. Ken is still solid vs Claw and can keep him going off the wall but Claw doesn’t need to touch the wall to win this match up in my opinion.

Changed Boxer vs Honda from 5-5 to 6-4 in Boxer’s favor. Hands have less effective hitboxes in this matchup compared to ST. Ochio throw does less dizzy and bounces away in the corner. Boxer’s changes such as harder to build meter and reduced Super damage don’t hurt him as much in this match.

Changed Dictator vs Ryu to 5-5 (from 4-6) because of the new invincibility to Devil’s Hand (mostly). Without a Super in ST, Dictator would eat a lot of chip damage in the corner, and he’d have to block meaty fireballs on wake up if he got knocked down. If you blocked a meaty fireball in the corner your opponent could throw another or close the distance and threaten all sorts of stuff (if he already wasn’t point blank). Now Ryu players cannot lock you into the corner not nearly as effectively as they could in the past. And Ryu’s Super can completely be avoided (or passed through) on wake up instead of having to be taken for chip damage and then having to deal with Ryu if he walked up to you while you were in blockstun. Devil’s Hand makes this match even in my opinion. Ryu’s fake fireball is useful in this match but nowhere near as useful a tool as the new Devil’s Reverse is.

Slightly changed Dictator vs Ken to 4.5-5.5 (from 4-6). Knee bash is far less effective in this match, Ken has to take an extra step to get within throw range off his usual tick set ups, and Dictator already had a larger throw range in ST. You can counter throw much more easily if he tries to use a hold in this match. Devil’s Reverse also can get you around fireballs effectively as well. Still though, Ken has a DP that can’t be safe jumped, so Dictator’s okizeme is slightly less dangerous in this match than the other shoto, Ryu.

Slightly changed Dictator vs Honda to 4.5-5.5 (from 4-6). I hesitate to make this match even but it’s not nearly as bad as it was in ST. In Super Turbo, Honda could annihilate Dictator in the corner with the Ochio throw loop. Now that’s gone, and Honda’s hands have worse hit boxes and deal less damage, and Ochio doesn’t dizzy as much. I don’t see this match as scary anymore for Dictator.

Changed Dictator vs Zangief to 4.5-5.5 (from 6-4). Not sure how anyone got Dictator being in favor for this match. Zangief has a myriad of normal attacks that stuff scissor kicks and psycho crusher. Dictator has no reliable reversal to beat command throws so he’s almost always free for SPDs if Zangief touches him. Dictator has to keep Zangief out the entire match while building meter in case he needs to get out of jail. Trying to knock Zangief down and cross him up with Dictator is also not easy (meaning you lose some of those ToD victories).

Slightly changed Dictator vs Guile to 5.5-4.5 (from 5-5). Dictator can knock Guile down quite often in this match and Guile is easy to both crossup and safe jump. Dictator can also safe jump Guile, tick him to that Guile is out of throw range, and then throw him for free. Dictator’s new standing jab is also a new tool in this match though it isn’t anything game changing. Devil’s Reverse however is. Guile loses his flash kick charge if he throws a sonic boom, so you can Devil’s Reverse through sonic booms, and Guile has to go back into crouch and remain stationary. Guile’s new overhead isn’t something I’d worry about in this match, it’s far better for Guile to try to cross Dictator up mid screen or to jump right on him while he’s cornered. Guile also dizzies really easily so he must block after taking two or three successive hits.

Changed Dictator vs Hawk to 7-3 (from 5-5). T.Hawk might have a new safe dive but he still can’t jump at Dictator without getting massacred. Jumping jab and short whiff against Dictator if he crouches. The splash can be hit with some of Dictator’s crouching normals. T.Hawk’s DP can whiff against crouching Dictator from nearly point blank range. And Dictator can knock Hawk down like crazy and cross him up safely including having safe blockstrings if the crossup is blocked. Dictator should just run away, build meter, then try to knock Hawk down and cross him up. If you have solid execution with Dictator and can keep knocking Hawk down without getting knocked down yourself…then this match is pretty simple. Sure if Dictator gets knocked down (without meter) he’s screwed but that’s much easier said than done for T.Hawk.

Changed Dictator vs Cammy to 8-2 (from 6-4). Dictator has a better throw range, can punish tons of her special moves, and doesn’t need to rush her down in this match. Very, very winnable for Dictator, and very tough for Cammy to get any kind of offense going. Cammy dizzies easily as well. I never feel threatened as Dictator in this match.

Changed T.Hawk vs Ryu to 3-7 (from 4.5-5.5). Knockdown dive being gone makes getting Ryu down on the ground much harder. Fake fireball even just once in the round can bait Hawk into diving at the wrong time and getting pushed further back out by a dragon punch. T.Hawk’s new throw whiff in this match hurts him incredibly. Any throw attempt can be beaten with a dragon punch whereas in ST every command throw was 100% safe.

Changed T.Hawk vs Ken to 2-8 (from 5-5). T.Hawk cannot safe jump Ken, and command throws lose to dragon punches, and the dive doesn’t score you a knockdown. Good Ken players should punish any okizeme jumping attacks with a reversal fierce dragon punch. And Ken’s Super can be used as a reversal now…meaning you can eat Ken’s Super from a command throw whiffing. Now matter how much you mix up ticks in this match you are going to get DP’d out of a throw maybe 1/3rd of the time if your opponent is good. Great opponents however won’t even let you get close enough for that command throw attempt.

Changed T.Hawk vs Chun to 6.5-3.5 (from 5.5-4.5). Chun has been nerfed like crazy. R.Hawk has all of O.Hawk’s normals including far standing jab which stuffs Chun’s reversals. R.Hawk’s splash also destroys Chun. This is one of the few matches where T.Hawk players can absolutely obliterate their opponents once they get in. And getting in for this match isn’t nearly as tough as matches like the shotos/DJ/Guile.

I’m still editing this. Just saving the post for now.

42

Ok, I’m nowhere near as good as some of the people casting their speculations, but just looking at the Honda matchup for Ryu and Ken seems weird. I main Ken and playing against a good Honda is a grind. I can switch to Ryu, and it’s instantly easier. The speed of Ryu’s fireball, plus his fake fireball, I feel give him much more favourable odds than Ken. Sure Ken has a nice slow fireball, but what with Honda’s jab headbutt, that detracts from it. IMO Ken Vs Honda is 6. Ryu might even be 7.5 what with the fake fireball mind games. I might be missing something, so if I am, please put me right as to why it’s thought to be an even match for Ken and Ryu.

I suppose maybe we should get the opinions of the Honda players?

43

Ken’s jab fireball + fierce SRK = honda is fucked in the right hands. Ryu and Ken for my money are equally as hard in capable hands for slightly different reasons.

44

Ken vs Honda is so fucking easy, it’s pathetic. I do find it to be a grind too, but in the boring, yawn-fest kind of grind. I almost feel bad for Honda. Almost. And then I remember that my Zangief gets crushed so easily by even mid level Hondas, and then I don’t feel bad anymore. >= J Ryu and Ken vs Honda is easily 7-3 if not 8-2.

Dhalsim can give Ryu a tough time, but it’s not easy. Same with Boxer. Obviously, the Dhalsim player has to have GDLK zoning. Dhalsim is the only character that only becomes top tier at the very highest levels of play IMO. It’s incredibly difficult to become that proficient with Dhalsim, but if you can get there like Gian has, the Yoga Master is a real threat to both Ryu and Boxer. Slight advantage for Dhalsim in both matches, 6-4 IMO.

45

Some slight changes on blanka’s part, but this is from my personal experience
IMO:

Blanka 3 - 7 DJ
Blanka 3 - 7 Boxer
Blanka 4 - 6 Sim
Blanka 4 - 6 Cammy
Blanka 4 - 6 Fei
Blanka 4 - 6 Chun Li
Blanka 4 - 6 Sagat

46

My proposed changes up for debate. Keep in mind I rate 5.5/4.5 as a slight advantage and 6/4 or 4/6 as an advantage (Which this chart seems to do as well). I believe some players use 6/4 or 4/6 as slight advantage and 7/3 or 3/7 as advantage. Just pointing that out in case there’s a debate about what to score even though they are most likely agreeing with each other and not know it.

Fei vs. Chun - 6.5/3.5 in Fei’s favor
Fei vs. Guile - 5/5
Fei vs. Blanka - 6/4 in Fei’s favor
Fei vs. Deejay - 4/6 in Deejay’s favor
Fei vs. T.Hawk - 5/5
Fei vs. Gief - 6/4 in Fei’s favor
Fei vs. Dhalsim - 3.5/6.5 in Sim’s favor

47

You must add and subtract fractions to stand a chance!

48

I can get behind this. I still don’t have enough exp against hawk, I think I fought one that was decent maybe in the last 6-8 months.

@Ganelon, it kind of depends with the online. Yeah you have to have faster reflexes, but if the connection is good enough its simulates close enough to the real thing.

49

I multiplied each character’s match up number by their total/(75), then got new totals for each character. Thus, these numbers improve the tier rating of a character that has good match ups versus high-tier characters and make good match ups versus low-tiers worth less. This isn’t completely accurate, as the formula should technically use its own result to determine the final values, but this is it after one iteration.

Ryu: 83.35
Vega: 82.46
Balrog: 82.06
Ken: 79.55
Dee Jay: 78.94
Dhalsim: 78.5
E. Honda: 76.06
Chun Li: 75.28
Sagat: 75.02
Guile: 73.8
M. Bison: 72.57
Cammy: 70.71
Blanka: 70.55
Fei Long: 68.85
Zangief: 61.19
T. Hawk: 60.41

50

Ken vs. Hawk 8-2? What the hell are you smoking? Fighting Ken is practically fighting Ryu except you can’t safe jump him at all. Its 7-3 at worst.

Ryu vs. Hawk is 6-4 Ryu’s favor. Fake FB hardly makes that much of a difference in that fight.

51

Thanks Thelo, for putting this long awaited thread out here. This was the thread “I wanted to see” instead of that other thread I sadly mistaken for yesterday. As I expected it brought out a pretty good debate from a lot of the best players here.

52

Did you really have to open that door jiggly, we all know what’s gonna happen.

53

I said I wouldn’t nitpick over .5 but why not give the most accurate score you can? :slight_smile:

My opinion on the three characters I main. I do think the original chart overall is very good. Most of my disagreements are minor (.5 to 1) but there are a few that I think should have a larger change:

Hawk vs Dhalsim: I think this slightly in Hawk’s favor now compared to ST where it was a suicide matchup. His new dive makes all the difference in this match as he can now pressure with the dive. Dhalsim can standing jab to counter but that shouldn’t deter the Hawk player. Keep mixing up the dives because the reward for hitting is equal to getting countered with the jab 4-5 times. And his pokes work well against Dhalsim’s limbs, especially low strong.

Zangief vs Chun Li: This match takes a lot of work by Zangief but it’s a fairly even one. This was 4-6 according to the Japanese charts in ST and it’s slightly easier in HDR due to Chun Li’s nerfs and Zangief’s improvements, thus the .5 boost. Still basically the same match up though. The original 3-7 ranking is much too low IMO.
**
Zangief vs Dhalsim:** Zangief’s improved lariat helps quite a bit in this match and allows him more chances to get in. Just as in ST, once Zangief gets in, Dhalsim is in big trouble, only now it’s easier to get in on HDR. Honestly I’m a bit surprised this match is that much easier now but based on my experience against (good) Dhalsim players, I have to say this match is pretty even now and I’ll even give Zangief the slightest of edge now. It’s not even close to the hell it used to be in ST.

Zangief vs Dictator: This was also 6-4 in ST. Dictators buffs don’t really make much of a difference in this match so I still see it as 6-4. The original 4-6 ranking is much too low IMO.

Honda vs Ryu: Fake fireball is ridiculous. 'nuff said.

Honda vs Cammy: We all know Cammy’s troubles vs Honda. Cammy just didn’t get enough buffs to make a difference in this match. The original 6.5-3.5 is much too low IMO.

54

I agree with all your other matchup opinions, except this one. I just don’t see how Zangief has a slight advantage vs Dhalsim now, let alone the match being even. The new Lariat’s lower hitbox is great, and so is the new cr Fierce, but this is still a very tough match for Zangief. If the Dhalsim player sticks to using the df Fierce and df Strong, which are better at stuffing the Lariat’s startup than st Fierce and st Strong and don’t get knocked down at all by the new Lariat, this match becomes not that much different than ST.

I would even argue that Dhalsim has an even greater advantage in HDR as he can now use his Super as a reversal, but couldn’t do that in ST. And this is one match that Dhalsim has no problems building meter at all. So if Zangief does get in, and Dhalsim has meter, he’s gotta deal with that, but didn’t have to worry about it at all in ST. This match is better for Zangief in HDR thanks to a couple of new buffs, but Dhalsim can still find ways around them. After Honda, this is Zangief’s toughest match IMO, 6-4 Dhalsim.

55

nah man, its quite easy to punish sagat every time he does a tiger shot, cos of the increased recovery, its one of the few matches where it actually pays for guile to be offensive.

56

hawk vs guile is more 3-7
hawk vs sagat is more 4.5-5.5 if you really want to be generous (st rh / cr.rh kills him)
personally ive never had a problem fighting a vega before so im generally more inclined for the match to be more even but id definitely say 4-6. its no way near as hard as guile

57

Thank you Kuroppi for your insight. I know I have said many things regarding Sim and it some times goes on deaf ears but I agree with your assessment of T.Hawk and especially Zangief.

58

I find it strange that Dic went down so drastically in the overall points ranking. Fourth from the bottom for a character that only got buffed seems a bit odd to me. Some of the matchups look a bit skewed too, but i might be putting too much of a personal experience slant on it. It’s hard to imagine a matchup at that level when you haven’t got all the knowledge, but hey, that’s what makes tier lists so contentious, right…

My take on things for Remixed Dictator:

Against the shotos, Shotos 6-4 Dictator: Yeah i can see how dic is at a disadvantage, but i would have thought it would be 4.5 or so. Not too much there to complain about, but Dic’s invincible DR does give him a tool he didn’t have in ST to escape wakeup pressure and play more keepaway games. Crossups and mixups from a close zoning ryu happen less to me in HDR than they did in ST because i can be mobile on wakeup with a DR instead of having to sit and wait in blockstun for a mixup or some pressure after a meaty FB, and ryu has to be more aware of dic’s new options.This adds a half point to dic’s ranking IMO. Fake fireball is good, but not HUGE in the matchup, it doesn’t change the tactics too much outside of baiting headstomps. Also ken’s kneebash is not quite so much of a pain in the ass as it used to be, so i would say the same 4.5 ranking should apply, but that’s only my personal oppinion. I’ve seen dic destroyed by good shotos, so i can’t complain about 4-6 too strongly.

Chun & deejay having a slight edge over him is about right too, 4 or 4.5 out of 10 for dictator, giving them the advantage over him seems OK. Those are tough matches. Chun can poke and tick throw the hell out of dic, and her j.Lk is a real pain, and deejay can turtle bison out really well and kills him with crossups/ticks when he gets on the attack up close.

Blanka, guile, sim, & cammy’s ranking all seem to be spot on. I would have thought sagat was at a slight disadvantage to bison with his longer tiger shot recovery, rather than 5-5, but that might just be because sagats rarely give me too much trouble.

I think the following are the key ones in the new tier list that don’t seem to add up for me:

Hawk 5-5 Dictator: This has got to be worse than evens for dic. Either side can control the match, but Dic has to play it incredibly well and can’t affort to mess up at all. Even a traded hit can cost him the match. One mistake by Dic and it’s basically game over. While it’s not a guaranteed free win anymore, the odds are massively in hawk’s favour from just one knockdown, because he can be all over dic in a second, like a fat kid on a smartie. Has to be at least 6-4 in hawks favour.

Gief: 6-4 Dictator: I put this at evens or maybe slightly above, maybe 5.5-4.5 in gief’s favour at best, rather than 6-4 for gief, just because of his lack of mobility in comparison to hawk. All the same issues apply in terms of ticks and 360s, like hawk, once gief is in it’s big trouble for dic, but it’s harder for him to get into that position and the new DR helps dic out a little sometimes. Gief also can’t exploit EVERY single knockdown because he doesn’t have a move that can get in on a knocked down dictator from anywhere on the screen instantly like hawk does with that fucking whiffed dive.

Honda: 6-4 Dictator. This matchup improved drastically for dictator from ST, Standing jab stuffs torpedoes, crusher beats hands clean, DR can escape command ticks, jab torpedo buff doesn’t have any effect, ochio nerf and no stored super anymore take away from honda’s offense game hugely. I can’t see how it’s only 4-6 for dic, i may be wrong on this one, and if i am i’ll hold my hands up, but i don’t see it. Honda may have a very slight edge overall, but 4.5-5.5 in honda’s favouror even 5-5 sound more likely to me. Dic has an answer for everything honda can do now if he plays for position and is smart. Sure honda is still scary on offence, but so’s dic, and dic has lots more tools now.

Boxer 6-4 Dictator: It’s probably just personal oppinion/lack of top tier competition, but i think this matchup should be even 5-5. Dic’s cr.MK keeps out a lot of boxer’s rush shenanigans, and it also combos into safe on block Scissor Kicks for knockdowns, Boxer’s reversal headbutt isn’t safe on block anymore, and the crossup/throw loop is nerfed a bit. Ypu can headstomp for free on a downed boxer, and safe jumps and J.MK are fantastic against him on the deck too, and he’s TOD bait if you get them right. 5-5, an even match sounds better to me.

Claw 4-6 Dictator: Walldive loops STILL give dictator hell. That’s the only reason why i would think this is closer to evens than being 6-4 in dic’s favour. Both sides have a sweet spot to play from and can f*ck the other side up if they get into it, but vegas walldive loop can easily turn a match around for him if he gets it started.

Felong 5-5 Dictator. Feilong can really shut dictator down if he gets him in the corner, and a single rekka x3 (blocked or connected) will do this for him from blockstun and pushback. This alone makes the matchup Fei 6-4 Dictator in my oppinion.There’s no way it’s evens, there just aren’t enough good fei players out there who exploit dictator’s weaknesses. Anybody who doesn’t believe it should try picking dic in a set against Evo/The embrio’s fei, and watch what happens.

I guess it’s like Zaspacer posted.

Dic has some seriously bad matchups against a lot of the cast, where things can turn into a rape-fest if you get your positioning even a little bit wrong and you have no reliable reversal to escape, outside of a super. He’s also susceptible to counter picking from a good few of the cast, so he’ll never be top tier. He was always mid tier, upper mid at best in ST, but i don’t see how in a game where he got buffs only, and where none of the buffs that the rest of the cast got gave him MAJOR problems, he could drop down so much after the remix.

The only minor downside to playing with dic in HDR versus ST is the nerfed damage output across the board hurts him a little in some matches like VS Gief where he might only get one good opening, and where a quick stun and a TOD used to win the round but it doesn’t necessarily anymore. Despite this, for him to drop down to joint 4th from the bottom after only getting buffs seems a bit wierd.

59

Like I said, I’m a bit surprised that I’m having as much success as I am in this matchup because despite the buffs and nerfs, the fundementals of the match have not changed from ST. But I’m basing this off of the Dhalsim players I’ve faced. And there are a lot of good Dhalsim players online (both American and Japanese). If any more Dhalsim players can offer their input that would be great. I’d like to hear how they rank this match.

If someone can change my mind, I’ll happily change the score on this one. :slight_smile:

60

This thread kills me :rofl: