Seriously I’m not good enough to give (or compete against for) high level matchup figures, however in a match where I do have a LOT of experience vs good players (like DeeJay vs Gief) and I’ve tried out tons of stuff, I do feel like I’m at the point where I can extrapolate what I feel matches would be like if I had better reactions, positioning, didn’t make execution mistakes etc like I do - and my opponent was the same. I definitely feel like DeeJay has a clear advantage vs Zangief overall. I’d give it 6-4 advantage to DeeJay. I can’t argue with 6.5 though either. That’s for better players than me to debate.
As I’ve said many times though, I also feel it’s a very unstable matchup, so over a short run - like a few matches, it can easily swing to either side based on the smallest mistake, one bit of lag, or the smallest difference in player skill. It’s the type of matchup where two players of equal skill might still get perfects against each other.
Contrary to this might be say, DeeJay vs Honda, where DeeJay has a clear advantage as well, and it feels very stable. (or Ryu vs DeeJay where Ryu has a stable advantage vs DeeJay).
Now that EVO 2010 is over, I think it would be a good time to start discussions regarding matchups.
Anyone have different takes now that they had the chance to fight people offline (Assuming you went to EVO)?
What is everyones thoughts on Zangief’s matchups now that Snake Eyez won EVO?
As for my changes, I wanted to talk about Fei vs. Honda.
I finally got the chance to fight Thelo for the first time in casuals since Last year about 6 months (Roughly) when HDR was released. I played him on friday and we played a best of three matches which I was able to win (It was close though!). On Sunday we went back and forth, but I think he had one match over me.
I’m starting to think this matchup is 6-4 in Hondas favor (I rated it 6.5-3.5 in Hondas favor before).
Hey Thelo, I wanted to talk to you about this matchup whie we were in Megamans room but I forgot! XD
I also feel it’s about Honda 6 - 4 Fei. Just Fei’s stand fierce + rekkas really is good enough to prevent Honda from controlling the match too much, Fei does have a reliable reversal, and he basically does as much damage as Honda does when he gets going. Expert Fei players can also read when Honda will go for a special move, since they are all pretty heavily telegraphed, then counter it with a well-timed press of the fierce button. Honda still retains the throw and crossup advantage though. I used to be unsure about the matchup since I only saw Sirlin do the Fei gameplan well, but now that I’ve played an Aqua Snake on top of his game, I see that it’s a real thing and not just a magical Sirlin-only thing.
I’m way overdue on updating this chart, to be honest. Probably the most blatant change should be the Zangief vs Shoto ratings, which I think most people now agree is in Zangief’s favor.
Agree with all of that, if Honda gets behind against Fei it’s really hard for him to make up the difference. Too much holding down-back and not moving for my tastes, LOL. Plus all the really good Fei’s (which there are a fair number of now with HDR) usually know the match-up better than most Honda players because they have to play it more. I almost feel more comfortable in all Honda’s bad match-ups (Shoto’s, Guile, etc) than the good ones ('Gief, Fei, etc) simply because I play them so much more, LOL.
I’d say that 6-4 is reasonable. It’s still a BS matchup but not as BS as Fei vs DeeJay or Vega. At least Fei has the tools to make fat boy advance and not simply sit on down-back.
That’s it, and when Honda doesn’t have a charge the advantage is with Fei because he has such superior pokes. If Fei stays in that middle range he is good, from far away Honda can sit on charge and from up close Fei has to worry about Ochio. From middle, poking distance Fei is at the advantage.
I still don’t consider Vega or Deejay that much of a threat in HDR against Fei. Playing very good Vega players like Vega Uno/Dos/Tres, and Ghaleon (Blacmore) still hasn’t convinced me that the match is that brutal.
I would now consider just Balrog and Sim to be his worst MU.
I still call 6-4 in Deejay and Vega’s favor against Fei.
Sim? Really? Sim’s challenging but nowhere near the difficulty of a Deejay or Vega that knows to simply turtle up. Again, Sim has to take risks even with his pokes. All you need in that match is one knockdown or a couple of hard attacks to end this match.
If Vega & DeeJay are 6-4 (“not that much of a threat”) what do you deem the Fei-Sim match to be? I’d say that Vega-Fei is 6.5-3.5 as is the DeeJay matchup. Sim would be 6-4 his way if not 5.5-4.5 in my humble opinion. Rog is certainly a bad matchup without a doubt…thank God for offline play.
I thinks its also 6.5-3.5 in Sim’s favor. Remember we’re talking top level play here. The best Sim’s in the world can keep Fei out pretty easily. Sure it gets easier when you got them cornered but unsafe flame kick and shorter throw range means you better guess right or your gunna be tossed in the corner or take some damage and get pushed back.
Vega’s superior ground game and aa flip kicks means your at the mercy of the Vega player. Rekka’s have very little use and are very unsafe, flame kick can always be punished, Vega has a huge throw range, CWs get you thrown half the time and so on. Your best hope is to get a couple of lucky poke trades (not that common) and close the gap when you got them scared of being dizzy. Vega literally does not need to leave the ground to win this match up. 7-3 Vega.
As far as Dee Jay, I don’t think he is one of our hardest match ups. 6-4 (Dee Jay advantage) is a fair assessment. If they focus on zoning, sure it can be tough, but once you get passed their max outs and you got em in the corner, you can lock it up.
Now Balrog is another story. I personally think this is our worst match up. 7-3 (in rog’s favor) for sure. When Balrog is out of rekka range, this match is a total bitch. You can barely walk up with out getting rushed punched.
Very interesting. I think the Dhalsim match is one of the few matches where the improved Rekka range makes a drastic difference. But I can understand your sentiments. It can be a very challenging match but 3.5 to 6.5 seems a bit too steep.
What exactly about this match do you guys find the most challenging specifically. I don’t mean to belabor the point but I’d like to see if I can convince you otherwise.
What of the Ryu-Fei match? Is that still resoundingly in Ryu’s favor?
It’s the zoning aspect that is difficult (or should be). Rarely should Fei get a clean jump in on Sim from mid screen. They have a lot of tools to stuff your jump ins. Sim’s pokes should stuff your walk ins from far mid to mid screen which leaves you at their mercy (kinda like Vega.) Your options at that range are to walk up and block a poke(which puts you back at full screen-ish), jump (hello stretchy foot to the face), psychic flame kick a limb (good luck), or use your pokes and hope for a trade (Sim wants you to do this but it is your best bet.) All of these options means you either have to catch Sim sleeping and get closer or just get plain lucky. Usually when I play solid Sim players and I beat them I usually end up feeling that it was their mistakes that caused me to win rather than my correct guesses. I’m always like “Ok, he could done “x” to stop my “y” but he didn’t and now he is in the corner.” To be honest, I don’t think Sim is being played to his max potential in this match up (at least on xbox.)
As for Ryu, 6.5-3.5 at worst (Ryu’s favor.) It is a very basic match up. Get around his fireballs, get in his head, and put him to sleep. Or get zoned and raped from mid screen and hope you have a enough life for when you actually get in (if you get in) to maybe pull out a win. The sooner you get Ryu against the wall the better. Once you got him cornered, do your best to keep him there. His options are very limited there. That’s really it.
That sums up most of Sim’s matches though anyway. Sim players have to have the utmost patience because they rarely get to be offensive, just zone and counter. Basically I see it like this: play solidly until Sim messes up and then mercilessly punish him.
Adding: Ryu Matchups:
vs Ryu: -
vs Ken: 6-4
vs E.Honda: 6-4
vs Chun Li: 6-4
vs Blanka: 6-4
vs Zangief: 4-6
vs Guile: 5.5-4.5
vs Dhalsim: 4-6
vs T.Hawk: 6-4
vs Cammy: 6-4
vs Fei Long: 6-4
vs Dee Jay: 6-4
vs Balrog: 4.5-5.5
vs Vega: 4.5-5.5
vs Sagat:5-5
vs M.Bison:6-4
As all of you know, ryu is the most balanced char in the game, i was forced to play ryu on ggpo, because ken in ST IMO is not as good as HDR Ken, i still having problems with ken though, but my heart is with ken(no homo).
In my opinion the Honda vs Ken or Ryu matchup, it’s harder for the fat guy to deal with ken than ryu, ima honda player too, so, i’m not talking just a ken player but a honda player too.
The big arched fierce srk, gives to ken a big space and slower fireballs are perfect for traps and zoning, tatsu(aerial and normal) are very useful too for spacing.
I would put Ryu vs. Honda as 7-3, possible 8-2 in Ryu’s favor. I’d put Ken vs. Honda as 6-4. Faster fireballs and especially fake fireball are much harder to deal with (at least for me) than Ken’s wider arc SRK. Fake Fireball really makes it impossible to jump in and/or Sumo Smash on reaction once you work your way into that sweet spot range. I find myself having to work in a little closer than before against Ryu to be effective, basically not jumping or SS at all and just using footsies and HHS pressure.
Ken’s SRK takes longer to get around but the thing that I don’t like the most is HP SRK taking away safe jumps (I like to safe jump, LOL).
After this consensus chart is updated, a sticky should be created (which is locked) that Thelo is the only one who has control over it (Since he’s the one updating everything).
Next, someone should create a fancy high speed tier chart (Similar to Event Hubs or better) so players who browse this thread can look at updated tier list without having to browse this thread.
I think many will agree that the Event Hubs tier list is full of errors and many players that come across that tier list will believe that’s the consensus. It hasn’t been updated since last year, so creating this sticky will be a good reference point for lurkers of this forum.
