Consensus matchup chart

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
221

I don’t know, I still think the initial 5.5/4.5 Rog advantage is correct.

Have you seen the Halfro vs Smilez matchup? http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=202140&p=8189217&viewfull=1#post8189217

Halfro played it right in the beginning with the offensive side with good block strings and mix ups into throw. But as soon as Bison decides to turtle and bait, Rog’s at lost. If Dic blocks a rush, you’re gonna eat it. As soon as Bison has a super, you can’t jump at him at all. It’s almost like watching a mirror match with Dic or Boxer. Who ever starts off the chain reaction wins. I think the only reason for the .5 advantage it’s because there’s a lot of things Rog has that can stuff Dic’s moves.

222

why isnt it 5/5? just what exactly gives rog the slight edge?

223

Definitely, that’s always a factor in all of bison’s matches. I guess i just HATE fighting claw after getting force fed too many cans of whoopass from the likes of shari and baconology/vega tres. It’s probably my worst matchup. I’m working on it constantly, but for the moment I live in fear of the meaty walldive loop, and good claws know it. I know what all my options are, but the most consistent reliable counter i’ve found for the dive is a neutral jump jab. It stuffs it clean every time, but if he gets a knockdown and quickly starts a meaty crossup mixup loop where i don’t have time to jump, aside from a lucky DR out, i’m completely f*cked.

I think the chart has it right, it’s closer to evens, maybe half a point in boxer’s favour. Dic’s Cr.mk stuffs a lot of boxer’s approach tactics like rush punches etc and combos into lots of good stuff for pressure mixups, and also headstomps give him some trouble. Boxer is scary once he gets in close but it’s not too diufficult to keep him off you and you do have an almost 50/50 chance of breaking up his attack strings using bison’s strong counter throws and footsies. Also, good bisons won’t throw out random fierce crushers because they’re easily punished, and LK scissor kicks are safe on block, and can’t be grabbed by boxer, they’ll be using those the majority of the time and making sure they 're not too deep on block.

Aside from when you’re knocked down, Rog only becomes REALLY scary when he has super meter…

I think the initial 5.5-4.5 feels just right too. That matchup is kill or be killed, and I think what gives Rog the edge are a couple of things: The countering capabilities of some of his normals and him having a decent attacking reversal where bison has to rely on weaker countering options and no proper reversal make a difference overall, and also, in the later stages of the rounds, where super meter usually comes into play, i think things shift a little more in rog’s favour and he’s better equipped to seal the deal.

Playing as Dic, Boxer with super is really dangerous, from both an attacking him AND a defending against him point of view. You just don’t want to be anywhere near him at all when he’s got meter, and you have to really work hard and be very careful trying to get that last bit of damage for the win. Conversely, when Dic gets super meter, Boxer can turtle up and counter everything you throw at him fairly effectively if he wants to and wait for a gap.

I always find that the last 25% of Boxer’s health is the hardest part to get through. I’ve lost tons of close matches against him that way, because he just seems to have a better set of options when the game reaches that stage.

I think it’s:

Without full super meters: 5-5 Even matchup
With full super meters: 6-4 Boxer’s favour

Overall 5.5-4.5 Boxer’s favour

224

i wish i had the skill to do it consistently, but ive manged to reversal Rogs super with Dictators super quite a few times online.

I think one time it even came out in the “pause” between the punches which was pretty cool…unless i dreamt that after getting hammered by Geneijin :razzy:

225

I think that’s a good way of putting it. Usually in my experience, I’m able to fill my super meter pretty quickly, simply because of 3 hit combo’s (whether they connect, or are blocked, doesn’t matter). A 3 hit string with Balrog gives about 40% super meter, so it’s fairly easy to fill that super meter up… My favorite is Cr. Strong, low rush, buffalo headbutt. Although depending on the Bison player, they will scissor kick a blocked Buffalo Headbutt, so you gotta be careful. If you find out fairly early that they are good enough to scissor kick the headbutt, then it would be best to just abandon the headbutt part of the 3 string hit.

226

Rog players think they are being extra cunning by tagging a jab headbutt onto the end of ALL their block strings.

its pretty easy to figure out after a while.

227

Yeah, I tried headbutting in a recent tourney and ate scissor kicks every time. You just have to know whether your opponent likes to stick out counter pokes or block.

228

Heheheh, yeah, block and punish with St.Lk, Cr.Mk xx Scissor kick a couple of times will put a stop to that. It’s 30-40% damage and will put you in great position for a crossup, wakeup mixup, or fake slide into throw for a dizzy. This really is a fun matchup, there’s loads of cool tricky stuff both sides can do. Definitely one of my faves.

The best players will mix it up and be unpredictable so you’re taking a gamble every time, that’s what makes the close game so interesting in this match, lots of little risks that can go either way make for fun and varied matches.

229

The unsafe jab headbutt completely turned that match on it’s head. I’d say Bison definitely has advantage over Rog in HDR.

230

i dissagree i put it 6-4 even 7-3 in chun’s favor i find this match very easy for chun ask EAmegaman :slight_smile: i don’t believe honda is in favor in this match at all

231

True anyone with a projectile seems to have an advantage over honda but he beats everyone else for free it would seem.

232

I used to think the same as you. I beat most hondas pretty soundly. Thelo and I debated this, this is what I wrote about the matchup (I originally had it as 7-3 chun’s favor)

Anyways, after writing this I played Thelo a series of games and now I agree with him. The main reason is there’s a good mixup after buttslam of

  • HHS
  • Buttslam
  • Throw

Chun doesn’t have good answers to this mixup. Anyways, I completely understand if you disagree, I thought the same way as well. I wouldn’t call it an easy fight for honda by any means. I guess it’s kind of like Zangief. I think chun li beats zangief 7-3 unless the zangief if Haru Teyjo, in which case Zangeif wins 9-1, lol.

If you still disagree, let’s set up a room with you me and Thelo. I’m sure we’ll all learn something.

233

Honda matchups:

vs. Ryu: 3-7 (Redefines hell at fullscreen, but very manageable at mid-screen and closer.)
vs. Ken: 1.5-8.5 (Once you get to midscreen he has entirely too many opportunities for knockdown/reset to full. Between a slow fireball he can sweep behind, his fierce DP of Hondarape, and… well, him only ever needing three moves all match, it’s a complete pain in the ass.)
vs. Guile: 4-6 (So easy to bait once you get within midscreen, and not horrible at full. He does have a lot of reaction answers to your reactions though.)
vs. Chun: 5-5 (Whichever side gets their bullshit off wins.)
vs. Blanka: 6-4 (See above, but Honda can at least sit and chill in down-back in this match)
vs. Dhalsim: 6-4 (Honda can take hits until he gets close, then Sim almost completely runs out of options. Getting from fullscreen is as bad as against Ryu though.)
vs. Zangief: 9-1 (Sit in down-back. Jab occasionally, sometimes do a crouching jab, sometimes do a jab headbutt, and sweep if you’re feeling daring. Even if you get knocked down you have 3 meterless reversals to get you out of trouble.)
vs. Boxer: 5.5-4.5 (The match is in your favor as long as you don’t use super and watch out for Boxer when he gets his.)
vs. Claw: 5-5 (Just like Chun, whoever gets their bullshit off wins.)
vs. Sagat: 5-5 (Is he hard at fullscreen? Yes. Is he Honda’s personal plaything after a few lucky guesses? Almost.)
vs. Dictator: 6-4 (TOD’s suck for Honda, headstomp sucks for Honda. The rest of the match is all Honda, all the time.)
vs. Cammy: 7-3 (Patient Honda will almost always win, the 3 is when Cammy somehow gets a decent string of damage off and does j. Strong at fullscreen.)
vs. Fei Long: 5.5-4.5 (Fei is NASTY when he gets close. Thank god it’s relatively easy to keep him out. His pokes do make the match interesting on his end, though.)
vs. T. Hawk: 8-2 (See the Gief matchup, but you actually have to be on your toes against a T. Hawk who’s hellbent on getting close.)
vs. Dee Jay: 3-7 (Jumping jab, max outs, fake max outs, short upkicks, upkick juggles, obscene ground normals… poor Honda. At least he can win up close, but getting there is extremely hard.)

234

So, have we reached a concensus on this concensus matchup chart then? Is it final yet, or are any more of the big hitters going to weigh in?

It would to get a definitive somewhat “final” version to use as a reference point.

235

I’d like more Deejay players to weigh in their take on the Fei Long matchup. There hasn’t been enough yet.

Where are you Bruce, Leonowski?!!!? XD

From what I read, many considered it a 7-3 (Or 7.5 - 2.5) matchup (Deejay’s favor) in ST and I could understand why. (From matchups I observed in ST which doesn’t seem to be too many for Fei vs. Deejay, why is that?) It seemed very difficult for Fei to stay in when he got close due projectiles causing Fei to have no choice but to block and get pushed back, not to mention Deejay’s solid normals.

But in HDR it’s easier to stay in due to LK CW. So because his projectile option is almost eliminated Deejay relies a little more on his normals like slide, cr.MK, etc. to keep him in check. Now Fei not having to worry too much about Deejay’s projectile (when up close) can concentrate on stuffing Deejay’s normals without high risk like he did in ST.

When done at the right time and at the correct distance:

  • Slide can be stuffed with st.HP or cr.HP
  • cr.MK can be stuffed with cr.HP when done before the active hitting frames come out
  • Dread kicks can be stuffed with st.HP

I played Afrolegends for the very first time at West Coast Warzone (Casuals). WCW was my first time playing offline competition (I crashed at Voltech’s house for the event so I suppose he was my first EVER offline opponent! :D) and I played his Deejay 8 matches. I managed to win at least 2 matches. Even though I played the best of the best with very little offline experience (Online Bred!), I still didn’t feel it was a 7-3 matchup. I tilted over in my seat to ask him his thoughts on the matchup and he said he thought it was a 7-3 matchup.

It didn’t cross my mind to ask him if 7-3 was considered to him an advantage and 6-4 to be considered a slight advantage in his rating scale. Maybe he can clarify that for me!

Anyway, I still rate Deejay vs. Fei 6-4 (Advantage) in Deejays favor.

Rambling done!

236

Newly updated, might be slightly more pessimistic:

vs. Ryu (3-7): Is winnable if the Ryu flinches to hooligans, otherwise no
vs. Ken (2.5-7.5): Sluggish fireball and jab SRK dominates
vs. Honda (1.5-8.5): I’ve seen Mr. Jangara get beaten by only decent Honda’s
vs. Chun-Li (5-5): Crossing up is key
vs. Dhalsim (5-5): You can only win if you get in
vs. Blanka (6-4): This is a bad matchup for me but I recognize j. strong and st. strong
vs. Guile (2-8): Almost as bad as Honda, Guile can technically counter ANYTHING you do
vs. Dee-Jay (2-8): Same shit as Guile but harder to crossup because of his hitbox
vs. Fei-Long (8-2): I think Cammy owns this
vs. Vega (5-5): He can be beaten if knock you him down
vs. Bison (5-5): Turtle patiently and use j. strong
vs. Sagat (4-6): Winnable if you guess which tiger is being fired
vs. T-Hawk (7.5-2.5): Can be beaten with smart use of normals and drill
vs. Zangief (7.5-2.5): Same shit as T-Hawk, but one knockdown and you’re done
vs. Balrog (4-6): Buffalo headbutt really kills the cr. short > drill

Total: 68

Tier ranking: last

Reasoning:

  • high level matches against her bad matchups rely on guessing (ex. if you guess the wrong opener against Guile, you’re done)
  • T-Hawk, Fei, and 'Gief can do massive damage if they get in and are harder to counter as opposed to Cammy
  • only decent throw range
  • some of her moves are literally useless against advanced players
  • low health
  • her cross-up floats too much and can miss more often
  • you need to have EXCEPTIONAL technical skills and reflexes to play her well, and this is difficult to ask of the average or even above-average player
237

I thought everyone but Akuma had the same health? I guess not. Also against Boxer, cr. short drill doesn’t work. Can Boxer headbutt through cr. foward drill, too?

238

Zangief has the most stamina, and Akuma has the worst stamina. Check the wiki for the listing.

Not if it’s a combo string. I’m not sure if cr Short, Drill is a combo, but cr Forward, Drill is most certainly a combo.

239

I tend to agree that it’s in DeeJay’s favor. I haven’t yet encountered a normal from Fei that c.forward doesn’t beat, and it also stuffs rekkas, which makes it pretty easy to keep Fei out. At that point, the only options left are jumping or chicken-wing, and those are both asking to be upkicked (though sometimes it’s hard to hit short chicken wing on reaction).

That said, I’ve also taken a couple sound beatings from good Feis (Sirlin, Aqua). It just takes one right guess from Fei, or one slow reaction from DeeJay for Fei to get in close, at which point he can mix up throws, pokes, overheads and flame kicks, while keeping you from getting a down charge with short chicken wing. That usually results in decent damage. And if Fei has the life lead, DeeJay has to either come to him or throw maxouts, and either option is dangerous.

All in all, I agree it’s somewhere in the 6-4, 7-3 range.

240

I would also say that Fei has an easier time escaping Dee Jay’s cross-up in HDR since you can option select reversal chickenwing/flame kick.