SF4 has far more ways of completely avoiding fireballs than SF3. SF4 has more effective reversals and loads of moves with invulnerability. Teleports, Backflips, many EX moves pass right through fireballs. Comboing into a Denjin is not as effective as comboing into his current Ultra. Would do allot less damage and Denjin requires charging to get full effect. It would be closer to tacking a Medium punch onto the end of your combo. Sure you may Dizzy off of it, but you just used your Ultra meter and most if not all of your EX bar.
Hmm…
Well I suppose it’s perspective. I find anything could be competitive provided all participants have access to all options to remain competitive. If Ultras were awarded to one player per match, I’d be for redoing it. If a full Ultra meter changed move properties, I’d understand. But the current set up is not anti-competitive. It doesn’t make the game more competitive either. In fact, I’d go as far as to say it doesn’t change the spirit of Street Fighter all that much. The inclusion of EX moves did more to Street Fighter than Ultras (personally speaking).
I mean, it’s not broken - and it doesn’t need to change everything either. And people thinking it shouldn’t be included if it’s not ‘great’ or ‘perfect’ are unaware of how game development works.
Stop bringing up Smashers and their antics. 
First of all, so long as Evo makes it clear what way the game will be played (I’m assuming default), then whoever wants to join should square with that. It’s the same with Ranked matches in most (all?) games; there are default options and you need to square with them.
Me and my guys play SC4 with double health to extend matches (it feels right with the epic looking game). Online, and at tournies, people don’t jive like that. The world. Did not. End. The same with CoD and Perks and Halo and whatever other options. Something like this already exists and Smash is an extreme case that isn’t the rule (nowhere near).
The traditional fighting gamer community deserves more credit than that.
Secondly, let’s think about this “other major” you mentioned. What did they do that Evo could not to satisfy these gamers? Clearly, by your word, there are alternatives. Evo shouldn’t be ‘protected’ by the stupidity of gamers.
And when I say options what do you guys think? Some shit like turning off dizzy or some shit? God no.
That is because Ultras are badly implemented. As I said, they shouldn’t just be bigger Supers. He was able to do this because Akuma’s Ultra is just a bigger more hard to avoid Shun Goku Satsu. If it was something completely different which didn’t do such a rediculous amount of damage, he would have likely lost.
I agree Ultras are badly designed. Their flaw is they are bigger supers. They shouldn’t be. Why should something not tied to the Super meter look like the characters super and do more damage? It is like being able to do a level 2 super in a game like Alpha, and still having a full level 3 left over. It is retarded.
The majority of Ultras should do about as much damage as the typical EX move, maybe more depending on the move. Just give them access to some useful utility they don’t get normally that gives them the chance to turn the round in their favour without completely ending it outright.
Extra mode in KOF 98/98UM gives you unlimited level one supers when your life is low, but they do not do rediculous damage and most supers do not even have much invincibility if any. Used alongside Advanced mode, the two are pretty well balanced. It is possible to give a player extra moves as compensation for taking damage without it becoming such an abusive reward and without too much impact on game balance, just don’t make the reward as big as the current Ultras make it.
Way to miss the point. You said all Ryu does is cancel a dp into a large fireball. Well what does SA 3 Ryu do? :looney:
your quest for options to turn off aspects of the game is exactly what smashers want and do. all your doing is promoting their antics and then at the same time acting like what you want is that much different from what they want.
Like it or not smash is the precedent when it comes to these things. Giving fighting games options is the exact opposite of what this site and fighting games were based on. and in turn are making SF smashlite.
You treat fighting gamers as if they’re inferior to other communities. Like we can’t handle the option of turning Ultra and Super meters off. Pathetic.
And I like how you’re tying me with Smashers by saying I’m promoting them. That’s not reaching at all. Shit, it’s almost a strawman.
By the way, Smash is not a fucking fighting game, not on par with traditional fighters. The fact is the idea of extended options in fighting games are progressive, with data already showing it to be a good thing for the gaming in general. I’ll see your Smash community drama and raise you every other gaming community that’s been able to handle option-rich games.
Historically speaking, countering stats with “be afraid, be very afraid” usually tells you which argument wins. Look at politics. Although according to politics, the fear angle beats study anyway so maybe some of you are on to something.
holy fucking shit you are so so so stupid shut up shut up shut up
Thats a super, not an Ultra. Completely different.
If you pulled the same stunt in SF4 (assuming Ryu has the Denjin), pretty much everyone can completely avoid it on wakeup. Lariat, Teleport, Backflip. Add in a slew of EX moves as well, most don’t just avoid but will downright punish it. You even have more control of when you get up in SF4, which can mess with Ryu’s timing.
Comboing into it and juggling (thus not getting the full strength of the Denjin) really won’t do allot.
SF4 is really just a better home for a move like the Denjin. It is far easier to avoid.
Anyways; you are focusing on the wrong part of my argument. I gave the Denjin as an example, and will freely admit it may not be the best choice. I still stand by my overall opinion of what they should have done with Ultras.
attention mods ban sakura densetsu
How can it be better than in a game where you can parry the whole super?
why even have a comeback tool concept? the whole thing is retarded and its designed for scubs.
If your opponent has to WORK to put you @ a disadvantage, why should the person getting his ass kicked get a reward? why can’t the person losing WORK to make up the life they lost?
How to imply such a thing has come back system is too loosely to be narrow down to a general standard. It has to be approach on a game by game basic.
One personal way to imply comeback is to make 3/5 rounds mandatory. But I don’t know if were talking about exclusive in game mechanist.
Also depending on some games mechanics and designed. Some need to have them ready from the get go and then be excluded from the entire matches like arcana hearts “arcana activation” or something like guilty gear “Burst” which has number of options of use with its own advantage and disadvantage.
Personally I’m for come back mechanics. It gives the under dog a chance to win as well as further test the ability of the winning person to maintain
their advantage.
I don’t know why some people take it as a “reward for punishment” when its not a reward at all when apply accordingly. The participant had to sacrifice something and play a risky gamble that can ultimately end in a giving strong advantage to their opponent, or giving them a slight advantage that usually limited in most ways.
This is not to say “any” come back can’t ruin competition either. Though Ive yet to seen a case like this but comeback mechanics can and will ruin competition if not imply properly.
I think Street fighter 4 needs to work on theirs a bit more as well as TvC but more of TvC. SF4 can fix their by changing certain characters “Ultra’s” to not be so versatile as well as not allowing them to combo as well, besides a full focus attack. I think that is ok because i think a bit of damage scale kicks in.
But TvC doesn’t present its self well IMO. The Baroque mechanics is a little too rewarding in combo/rush heavy game as it is. For traded red life you get the ability to Baroque which allows player to cancel any immediate actions that’s not limited in many aspects. It’s way to versatile in usage and in execution, its gives great advantages to those who gamble’s with health because baroque not only presents a versatile cancel options, but also serves as damage boost as well. Capcom did try to apply other mechanics to balance this out but its in effective IMO. Like the guard cancel, at first it seem viable option but the cost of it and usage is imbalance. First it can only be used if 1 stock is available,second, you must have a partner and that partner must be ready to be tag, third one is that its not guaranteed at all for its cost and haves minimal benefits that don’t complement the system well or at least compare to other mechanics presented in TVC. Its far less of thread and used compare to Baroque. But Then again I think TVC has a lot of work to fix such a game.
Personally TVC seems to reward rush fest heavily and present options to them with minimal to low cost while the defensive mechanics are rather less appreciated and apply poorly in this game.
I do want come backs to be practical but they don’t need to be consistence and over weight over power other mechanics. At least not like the consistency presented in TVC.
(Personally i think Guilty Gear series does Come back Mechanics flawlessly)
The only real comeback option is their Burst that’s apply well. For starters, after its first usage, it can only be filled by time and traded damages. These two factor combine with other mechanics like the negative penalty punishes player who try to abuse the time will be punish by losing their tension which is heavily used. Also the the traded damage for it build is good in it self since its gamble, that I think is done properly. Not only does it brings good rewards but it can be backfired if used irresponsible that can potentially lead to player’s defeat.
Its precious and works well to level the game. Its easy to execute but hard to use effective. It can be versatile to be use as safe guards or an advantage boost. The game design is built well to were it can’t be abuse. Some how I don’t feel this way towards TVC. I’m’ not here to bash it but to just to point out how mechanics developmental needs to be fleshed out accordingly, especially when it comes to come back mechanics.
Parrying five hits is allot harder than doing one command, would be a shorter learning curve.
Doesn’t matter though. I used it as an example and admitted it may not be the best example. It is silly to hang on that.
The point is the mistake was making Ultras just larger more damaging Supers.
A better example of a move from 3S which would make a good Ultra is Sean’s Hadou-Burst. Gives him an advantage without being game ending. Elena’s Healing move is another (Though not Healing so much that she could just keep gaining Ultra meters and doing it over and over. Maybe gain equivalent of a single EX move in terms of Damage.) Makoto’s SA3 is another good example, though in a game where there is Parrying it def would be hard to use well.
this is whats wrong with SF4, for god sakes its already easy enough.
- short cut inputs for scrubs
- large ass reversal windows for scrubs
- huge ass jump arc’s so scrubs can see someone jumping
- walk speeds
- stage distance
- ultra’s to help scrubs even life up rather than playing layers
- bigger window for cancels in general
- no safe strings outside of lights into lights. This is to make the layers as simple as possible so scrubs can keep up.
and ontop of all these scrub altering changes, you want to add a new mechanic AND make it easier?
good lord. Seriously, the game is already scrub friendly enough. @ high level play, making the game easier for scrubs hurts the better players. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve accidently buffered an srk on accident or a super. Shit is ridiculous.
go fucking practice for god sakes. I’m tired of this BS where you change the game to make it easier so newer players don’t have to practice. Why even play if it doesn’t take time to get good? eventually, it’ll end up as one of those MMORPG’s where you just go around and hit shit that don’t even hit back.
The easy input system fucked me over (Gyro Drive Smas- OH NO, how about EX Cannon Spike instead!? Enjoy the recovery, triaD, there goes the match), but every other complaint is elitist whining, sorry.
???
SFIV is like that former best friend that fucked your girlfriend for some people.
To that Akuma comment: I play Akuma when I bother to pick up Shit Fighter 4 and I agree, the damage on a full charged Demon is retarded. They balance it out though with “Hey if ANYONE lands ultra on Akuma at half life, HE’S DEAD!” causing the Akuma of old to be completely neutered.
If Ryu lands a jab, with ultra and 2 meters, and you’re at 50% or lower, you’re dead. Yup, forget all the work and patience you already had to put in to get him to even half his health or lower, you lost the match because he did cr. jab before you.
Shit is like one of the 3D MK games where whoever lands the first jab wins.
Ultra is the scrubbiest most bullshit system implemented yet. Even K-Groove was better than it.
You wanna do a balanced comeback mechanic? Make a game with 1 character, 2 colors for 2 players, and give them the same everything with 1 super that fills just for sitting there. There’s your comeback mechanic implemented perfectly balanced.
Well if you’re talking about real old school, older games didn’t need comeback mechanics. Think about pre-ST SF. You you simply landed a hit, and got a few good guesses, you could dizzy your opponent and end the match. The damage output was so HIGH back then, that you didn’t need comeback mechanic.
SNK introduced the comeback mechanics with super meters and desperation moves in games that already had high damage. It was adopted by SF, which made every game after ST heavily meter dependent games. Still the comeback mechanics were still there.
New games like SFIV just make your super guage less important, but still give it to you in the form of an ultra. IT’s always existed in other games, though they never directly rewarded you for getting beat. However there are many cases where getting hit too many times build up a lot of meter for you, which could allow you to come back. SFA3 is the best example of this.
People don’t want to admit that if you do some random V-ism, custom combo, or hit confirm super, you’re still using a game mechanic to come back. You’re obviously using the game mechanics to setup the mechanism. Seriously, a lot of SF games has a meter buildinig metagame. It really isn’t important in SFIV, but the ultra metagame is there.