I think your error begins in thinking of Ultras as some sort of ‘reward’. It’s a funny stance considering the winning player is ‘awarded’ constant EX fill and eventually a full Super Meter (does he really need it? Winning and all?). I don’t, and never have, seen players complain about this mechanic (not even from self described novice players).
I don’t think the losing player is getting rewarded shit. He still has to deal with somebody who (supposedly) is his better. It’s one. Fucking. Move. And a risky one for most characters.
No it’s a reward because you get something, you did not previously have, as a result of getting beat.
The effectiveness of said reward for different characters is irrelevant when discussing the concept of rewarding the losing player with a comeback move.
Someone upthread mentioned VF, and while it has no clear cut comeback mechanic, it does feature ring out’s which facilitate a comeback. I know I’ve came back from a sliver of life in games like SC and Vf thanks to a timely ring-out.
Of course, anyone player can get a ring out, the winner and loser, at any time during the match, so it’s not exactly the same as other comeback system’s, but it can be used to get a win when losing.
Edit: One of the main issues with SF4 with that Supers are useless and it can be incredibly easy to confirm an FADC -> Ultra in comparison. Supers do 2/5 damage of ultras in some cases and have only like two invincible frames. Most decent players are not going to risk an Ultra unless they can confirm it will hit and you can easily confirm an ultra with some characters WITH NO RISK. No risk for such a damaging move is a problem no matter how you choose to rationalize it. So Super meter is regulated to being only used for EX moves and FADC. That is a major major problem.
Any King of Fighters game with “Extra” mode. You get infinite Level One Supers when your life is low. Likewise many of the Fatal Fury games and Art of Fighting.
To be honest, what it seems to boil down to is people having a problem with a game helping a player who’s losing with a single advantageous attack. One that could be baited, just like every other attack (a good player should be doing that shit anyway, Ultra or not). This makes all the elitist talk whining basically, that a player can’t stand a losing player having a trick up his sleeve to keep him on his toes. Boohoo your little sister just might pull off Chun-Li’s Ultra and humble big bro. Lord forbid.
Man up.
Oh yeah, and despite that I still believe in giving players the option to alter their game. So if they wanna have sessions without an Ultra meter, so be it. Somehow, you kids are against that too. Citing reasons mostly mongering fear (splitting community and “debates”? really?) and using the most extreme examples (Smashboards? Really?). In most documented cases, people like options. Fact. Dispute that if you wanna. The hilarious thing is these options include playing the game as is. Somehow this isn’t good enough, but the fighting game community is known for their aversion to change (add or remove anything in a fighting game and it’s automatic drama).
Not that other communities don’t get testy about their games (Halo community and their dreaded H1 Pistol), but I never seen such a distaste for giving players the option to play as they like. Essentially, People A want People X to play their game, but do not want People X to have the option to play People X’s game - even if the option includes People X playing People A’s game anyway. This is utterly selfish and small minded, and doesn’t progress the genre.
Anything could be baited, especially when it’s a more viable option in a losing situation. Nobody said it was the final answer to Ultras, but it’s a fairly entry level way of dealing with them.
Samurai Shodown handled it perfectly. It rewards smart gameplay. SF4 did it pretty well, I take umbrage with Ryu and Sagat being able to get a reversal, and still hitting you with their Ultra. In short, I’m for it so long as it has limited ways to be executed, cannot be endlessly spammed, and leaves you wide open after whiffing.
i understand that you are telling me that “comeback” mechanics can reward smart gameplay and i agree (i’m calling the statement stupid, not false) but do you acknowledge that “comeback” mechanics are inherently anti-competition?
The problem with Ultras is that Capcom treated them as larger Supers for the most part. They simply needed to be extra useful moves the character gained, not game ending moves. Seth’s Ultra is handled well, it does allot less damage than his Super and is a drastically different move in every way. Dhalsim is another example.
As I said earlier; Ryu’s Ultra should have been the Denjin Hadouken. It would make his gameplay less about cancelling Dragon Punches into massive Fireballs. Can still turn a round completey around, but takes more thought and setup to do so.
One thing I found odd was that the new characters in SF4 got Ultras completely different in function to their Supers, while the old cast got just enhanced versions of their Super moves (with exception to Ken and Claw…though bearing a resemblance) Gouken follows suite of the old cast though with his Ultra.
El Fuerte is another prime example of an Ultra done right. Not just a bigger super, it is a completely new move. Takes thought to connect.
I also think FADC should use part of the Ultra meter, with a full Ultra meter allowing two FADC.
you’re going to have an unblockable denjin in a game with no parry? how the fuck would you block it? after a KD, how would you get away from it? invincible move so you have to burn bar but probably be punished for it afterward?
ultra not a comeback mechanic? lol wow. When you lose, there’s this last resort you can bank on for hella life.
I just watched this akuma player @ the NEC tournament lose every single footsie string possible. Terrible footsies, bad zoning no comprehension of solid play. He takes damage left and right and waits till he has max ultra. Then off 1 layer, he evens the life or is in the life lead off 1 mistake from the opponent. That doesn’t classify itself as a comeback tool? no forethought about footsie strings, how he may react off multiple layers, no fakes no nothing. Just looking for a spot to land ultra demon… and magically, the life is even. All he did to make a comeback was get hit in the face a bunch of times then counter once and the match is even, fuck outta here.
If that ultra wasn’t there, he would of needed to find another means of making a comeback. Since it is, its a “tool” to aid a comeback.
just like when evo tried to run smash that year and we have two different gaming communities trying to run different rule sets for their tournaments. yeah that turned out well. Most of the smash playerd didn’t even goto evo and went to some other major.
Now lets add that to the SF community and see how well that turns out.