Comeback mechanics. How can the be done 'right'?

[DHEvil]

Snip

Wow, are you fucking retarded?!

How many times do I have to say that Ultras are no good before you get it that I don’t like the way they work, either? You are preaching to the fucking choir.

I merely used 3S Parries and SF4 Ultras, in the most general and basic senses possible, because I know most people on this forum understand the way they both work.

Simple as fucking that. Get your head out of your ass.

And don’t bring up this BS about Ultras only being usable at certain times somehow makes them bad. There’s a bunch of other stuff that DOES make them bad but this is not it. There’s no reason why this should be the case as long as you are given tools to play the game competitively without them.

Now how about you counter my ACTUAL argument rather than talking about how great every fighting game except for SF4 is and linking youtube videos of much better players than yourself?

And about my age when I was playing Street Fighter- Yes, I was playing when I was 5.

[TastyC]

If ultras worked like K-Groove, and gradually went down with time, the game would be a lot less turtley and comebacks would make more sense: ie. you had that last chance to come back, your opponent got scared, you seized the opportunity and made it rather than: you generated full ultra after being almost perfected, danced around a bit and landed targetcombo/dp+fadc Ultra.

Seemed to work in CvS2 and SamSho…

[uncreative]

If your opponent has enough meter to use Ultra, then it’s just a matter of avoiding/baiting it. If you have ultra, then you’re looking to punish. Ultras are strong, but they aren’t unavoidable. Just change your game when they have meter.

[Kalyx_triaD]

So split the community at the cost of letting everyone play their perfect game? No thanks :arazz:

1. No such thing as a perfect game. Reading threads here at SRK, it would seem people are split on games anyway. One thread praises BlazBlue while another condemns it. No game will ever unite an entire group, don’t be naive.

2. There are games that offer options in other genres (don’t know how many times I have to mention this), and to my knowledge their communities aren’t hurt by the varying preferences. People have personal tastes that no one kind of play can satisfy.

The idea that one of worried about “splitting the community” is weak.

[FluffyM]

1. No such thing as a perfect game. reading threads here at SRK, it would seem people are split on games anyway. One thread praises BlazBlue while another condemns it. No game will ever unite an entire group, don’t be naive.

2. There are games that offer options in other genres (don’t know how many times I have to mention this), and to my knowledge their communities aren’t hurt by the varying preferences. People have personal tastes that no one kind of play can satisfy.

The idea that one of worried about “splitting the community” is weak.

Actually it is a concern that one shouldn’t just put off.
I have to name TF2 here, it has an optional tournament mode that allows players to disable critical hits etc. The community indeed is split on the subject and some people actually do refuse to play that way because “it’s not as intended by the developers, or: vanilla” (ignoring the fact that it was put into the game by the developers). Sure those people are idiots, but there’s lots of idiots and most of them have money to spend.

I’m all for options and don’t think different standards for tournament play and casual play ultimately split the community, but it should be a legit concern imo.

[Kalyx_triaD]

that would solve nothing.

all it would do is create different groups of players and then we’d have debates on whether or not they should be turned on during tournaments. SF woiuld basically become another joke like the smashboards where they ban half the crap in the game to make it somewhat playable.

So don’t participate in the debates.

Game design shouldn’t take after the fact forums debates into account. Please.

I can’t even believe people would oppose options that potentially give them their own idea of an ideal play experience. The Smash boards may have some drama, but I BET Smash players have more fun with their game session for session than “core” gamers. I also bet people enjoy the options presented in FPS games more than the restrictions seen in fighting games.

Fighting games have a lot to learn about what people want. SF4’s feature set revealed that much (no lobbies online?!?).

Options are the only to satisfy the majority, let people define their play experiences - let them have their own game. This fear mongering about “splitting the community” doesn’t jive with reality. It’s a progressive aim for fighting games to parallel the trends of today’s gaming.

[Eksh]

The only comeback system I’m “knowledgeable” with is the SF IV ultra system [Haven’t played T6/played SS but nothing seriously]

I personally think the idea is ok and all, but it’s not brilliant/good yet. It needs it’s tweaks. I can pretty much say I like the fact that’s it’s sort of a new aspect to the game, you need to watch out when the opponent has ultra/ try to get a setup when you have one. [Stop throwing fireballs is a known example]

I don’t see it as a “loser in a round wins unfairly” because you can still try to bait/avoid/block it. It was unfair if it was an UNBLOCKABLE FULL SCREEN GIVEN ONLY TO 1 PLAYER move. You just need to notice the bar and act accordingly to it, even in strategies involving getting hit! [For example Daigo baiting Justin’s raw ultra as Abel by throwing Hadoukens, so he won’t be ultra’d using an Ultra setup and get more damage]

My opinion on how the ultra system can be good

• Comboing - Some characters can combo into it, some can’t. Keep the ones who can combo it, but add unique ways of comboing for those who can’t

– Use of meter. I’d prefer if the ultra setups used meter, whenever if it’s for FADC or for EX. Or at least make it “punishable” - For example, Gouken can link his ultra from his b. throw, however it takes more frames to execute so It’s easier to tech it. Ryu’s trading LP srk setup should be nerfed as well imo [Maybe lower juggle?]
and so are the other “easy links” imo

It seems like Capcom wanted to make the ultra “the new super”, so you should make the super bar to be used for EX attacks and FADCs. There’s a reason why the super bar got nerfed [Can’t gain anymore using not hitting normals]

• Reduced damage - Yep. Especially when they’re comboed [Some are indeed already reduced by the damage scale, but some don’t [Especially those who require a low number of hits to combo]. The damage scale system needs to be worked, reducing damage to specific moves based on they’re use [Raw, comboing, y’know] Non comboable ultras damage should be still nerfed imo

• Reward skill - The damage scale system is working. wrong. Alot of the combos done by normal/special attacks only are doing bad damage due to the damage scale. I’m not saying SF IV should reward infinites/become the new Vs game but the again, the damage scale system needs to be worked so combos should do more damage and not get that much of scaling, thus rewarding skilled players that use advanced combos. Increasing damage can work too [Or just increase throws damage on both cases :rolleyes:).

Not exactly related to the topic, but it still helps with the comebacks. Of course that if those combos are finished with an ultra, scaling should be done

• Options! Sort of what a member here said about a Naurto fighting game comeback system in this thread, though a little different.

What do I mean?

Dhalsim’s ultra. Yep, I think this ultra is great and that’s the way Capcom should do those ultras. The point of it isn’t the damage, It’s that it gives Sim some new options [comboing, “double crossup”]. I absolutely have no idea how this can be done with the rest of the rooster, but if it can be done, it should be great

Late Edit: Oh yeah, only 1 per round

Just my 0.02$

[Kalyx_triaD]

Actually it is a concern that one shouldn’t just put off.
I have to name TF2 here, it has an optional tournament mode that allows players to disable critical hits etc. The community indeed is split on the subject and some people actually do refuse to play that way because “it’s not as intended by the developers, or: vanilla” (ignoring the fact that it was put into the game by the developers). Sure those people are idiots, but there’s lots of idiots and most of them have money to spend.

I’m all for options and don’t think different standards for tournament play and casual play ultimately split the community, but it should be a legit concern imo.

That’s fair.

But if people refuse to play a certain way, they should seek out like minds. In Blazblue online I can search rooms that allow or ban super characters, easy moves, Astral Finishes, and so on. This is a small example of how fighting games can evolve. And if official Ranked Games use a default system the developers expect you to play, them’s the breaks. That’s their right as the game creators (Bungie’s ranked games have radar stock), but that doesn’t mean you can’t have your own games made more enjoyable because you have your own options.

[arstal]

Perhaps if the Ultra was a choice between options.

Didn’t FADC take ultra meter in the early versions? I think that might be the best solution- as FADC into max damage ultra wouldn’t work.

Damage scaling isn’t a problem- it rewards poking and ground game.

BTW in regards to the options, it wouldn’t work. Even Smash and FPS’s have standard tourney options that no one really deviates from. You’d just have drama and a split community.
The only advantage of system direction would be to get rid of an absolutely broken system, which SSF4 shouldn’t have. Ultras may have issues, but they aren’t “broke” by any stretch. Would you rather have customs?

[Kalyx_triaD]

What’s all this worry about “drama” and “split communities”? When did everyone become such girls? It’s all so hilariously avoidable I don’t know what more to tell you.

[Dandy_J]

What’s all this worry about “drama” and “split communities”? When did everyone become such girls?

man up and play the game the way it was meant to be

[Kalyx_triaD]

man up and play the game the way it was meant to be

I love the game the way it is, I fully support Ultras as well.

Where’d you get the idea that I wanted it any other way? Because I wanted people to have options? Yeah, I figure my argument was gonna be taken as some cry for self interest - but I assure you it isn’t. I’m actually thinking about you people. Fancy that.

[Black_Shroud]

By the way, how many game/series even have comeback mechanics?
To my mind come:
-SFIV (Ultras)
-Samurai Shodown (Rage and several others). K-groove super gauge from CvS2 is derived directly from here too
-MKvsDC (Rage)
-Tekken (Rage)
-Guilty Gear (instant kill mechanic, where you sacrifice super gauge. Its available at all times and not just at the end of match, but looks like comeback mechanic to me)

[FMJaguar]

Ultras today aren’t just a comeback mechanic, they are the main mechanic of the entire game.

If ultras functioned as more of a comeback mechanic they might be better. Typically a comeback mechanic is always availble, but is such low risk medium reward that it only gets used as a desperation tactic (pulling the goalie in hockey, hail mary in football).

With all the juggles and FADCs and hit confirms, ultras are more like another super meter, not something that has much of a risk, and not something that you use out of desperation, you just use it cause its free.

[Fulaani]

All I see in this thread are rationalizations for some of these mechanics, talking about baiting and ‘just changing your game plan.’ Or how to make them somewhat fair by giving every character viable options. But I have not yet seen anyone give a proper argument why the concept of giving the losing player additional help so the winning player has to bait or change his game plan is even an acceptable mechanic.

[Black_Shroud]

There is:
Make player’s defence drop by some % after every used Ultra (cause Ultra’s are so powerful, they are gonna exhaust characters).
This % can be regulated until everyone agrees that it makes Ultras balanced

[4r5]

GG’s instant kills are more like auto-lose. Except for the characters who can setup a dizzy for a free IK.

I’m surprised you mention GG’s instant kills but skip over its burst system.

But I have not yet seen anyone give a proper argument why the concept of giving the losing player additional help so the winning player has to bait or change his game plan is even an acceptable mechanic.

and what this guy said

[arstal]

Ultras today aren’t just a comeback mechanic, they are the main mechanic of the entire game.

If ultras functioned as more of a comeback mechanic they might be better. Typically a comeback mechanic is always availble, but is such low risk medium reward that it only gets used as a desperation tactic (pulling the goalie in hockey, hail mary in football).

With all the juggles and FADCs and hit confirms, ultras are more like another super meter, not something that has much of a risk, and not something that you use out of desperation, you just use it cause its free.

So would uncomboable ultras solve this in your eyes? The downside is people would whore wakeup ultras a lot more.

I mean, Honda’s ultra works pretty much how you describe.

As for the concept of comebacks, I think they’re ok as long as both players get access to them. If you’re up by a good bit, and you get hit by an ultra, usually the life is even, but the other guy got an ultra now at least.

The issue is when ultras do 60-70% and the other guy doesn’t get a chance to use it.

[Kalyx_triaD]

“I have to bait and change my game plan? I can’t stay comfortable in a match?! WHAAAAAA!”

“I’m an elite, I’m not supposed to adapt!”

[Fulaani]

“I have to bait and change my game plan? I can’t stay comfortable in a match?! WHAAAAAA!”

“I’m an elite, I’m not supposed to adapt!”

Way to pull what I said out of context. Good stuff!

Nothing wrong with having to change your game plan when the opponent gets new options or favorable positioning or whatever. But there is a lot wrong with having to change your game plan because you were beating his ass too much.

That is leeway the opponent doesn’t deserve.

Also, bait what? Most ultras combo off of stuff that if it hits> free ultra, if it doesn’t hit>whatever you’re safe.