I noticed that a lot of players, especially those who prefer old-school type fighters, seem to dislike comeback mechanics in recent games.
Since a lot of newschool fighters tend to be combo-heavy high-damage abare affairs, a comeback mechanic seems like a logical choice to include, but the general consensus seems to be that these are intrusive to the gameplay and reward the player for making mistakes, though some could argue that comeback mechanics such as TvC’s Baroque or SF4’s ultras are there to prevent players who have the advantage from getting too cocky and playing sloppy once they get a lead, and that it’s overall part of the strategy. After all, these mechanics work for both players.
So I guess I’d like to hear some ideas on how it might be possible to ‘unscrubbify’ comeback mechanics so that they’re actually interesting and not just there to cater to unskilled new players.
One of the cool aspects of fighters is that you have everything available to you at all times, regardless of how close to being KOed you are (Well, with a single pixel of health you won’t be able to block anything that chips, but that aside…). That is enough of a “comeback mechanic”, isn’t it? If you take any other game, something like that is very likely to be missing - If you’ve been steamrolled the entire match and are close to losing in a RTS, you’re lacking most of your tools already (be them units, buildings, tech, offensive options or whatever). Aaaaand people still manage comebacks…So yeah, it’s a silly idea. Not to mention that in any kind of competition, if you’re off to a bad start, you have to work hard(er) to tip the scales back. Fighters should be the same IMO.
I don’t see what’s wrong with some kind of comeback mechanic personally. If your opponent is at a stage where they have access to some kind of comeback, it just means that you have to take it into consideration and bait it out, which does take skill in itself.
Having more tricks to work with and more options is never a bad thing imo. Comebacks are just another tactic available. And besides, both players have access to it, so it’s not about ‘getting good at the game’ because if you’re playing a game that has a comeback tactic, if you want to get good at that game then you need to learn to use it just as well as your opponent.
In a lot of recent combo-heavy games (see: Not street fighter) it’s often outright impossible to avoid taking damage at some point, even if you play completely safely. TvC is an example of this. If you’re down on your partner with 0 meter and low health, you’re going to get chipped to death or overwhelmed/cheesed out if you don’t use baroque to turn the tides, which it rarely does if your opponent still has enough meter to megacrash anyway. ESPECIALLy if you’re playing vs. (or playing as) a giant character.
Anyway, that’s not what I asked. Serious answers please. How would you go about making some kind of balanced comeback mechanic?
I personally like comeback mechanics. Makes the game exciting for the broader audience. However, an option to turn it off should be added. This would solve everything.
As an old-schooler myself, I for one can say that I HATE comeback mechanics in ANY game, but it doesn’t stop me from playing a game that I like that has the “comeback mechanic” in it. Can we say “Rocky 4”? LOL
I think that would divide the players between on/off users.
What do you guys think about guts? It’s perhaps the simplest comeback mechanic there is, having your power increase when your health is in the red or something like that. I don’t see it as being too intrusive to the match at all.
I’m under the impression that a balanced comeback mechanic should always have a risk to using it. Like TVC’s baroque, where you lose all your red life if you attempt it. There really isn’t a risk to using SF4’s ultras unless you’re doing them dry without hitconfirm, is there?
Old-schoolers seem to think that comeback mechanics reward you for bad play, but if it’s entirely about effort and skill, then why would you complain about something that essentially forces you to keep on the ball at all times and never underestimate an opponent, even when they’re seemingly down for the count?
that was funny the first time, but now that I consider that they actually ARE mainstream in japan, it kinda isn’t anymore.
As for getting something that you didn’t work for, I suppose that makes sense. However, does that also mean that we shouldn’t have the opponent build meter when they get hit? I don’t see a problem if both players have the potential to recieve that ‘gift’ of getting something they didn’t work for.
So then I guess that if a player needs to ‘do something’ to get access to a comeback mechanic, then it’s not so bad? For example, say you needed to taunt or something before you could start getting the benefits, leaving yourself open for a while. It would still take prediction to access this function, and you’d probably need to score a knockdown first before you could set it up.
Other genres, namely FPS games, learned long ago that people like options and tweaking the game to suit their tastes. The point is exactly to have that divide so gamers can enjoy the game with like minds.
just the fact that these features are acknowledged as comeback factors is dumb. people know it. you should not get something that can give you comebacks that easily from losing
they tend to be called comeback features because they are too powerful (as to allow for a comeback). you can be beating someone pretty soundly, but then if they only need 1 hit (lucky or not) to be able to reverse it…or more likely win the game. that’s stupid.
I remember reading somewhere about some high level tekken player…and where they would try to not even do complete combos…for fear of giving their opponent the rage. and it makes sense. they would have to wait, and then try and finish em off without letting them get rage. because, if they get a hit, all you’re hard work is gone (you most likely took some damage even though you were clearly outplaying them).
you shouldn’t have to worry about stupid shit like that. and it’s even worse when you take tiers into account. you could be a lower tier character, or someone who doesn’t have the advantage of being able to stay back and use projectiles. so if it were some lower tier against a sagat in SF4…if you put both players in a situation of this whole comeback factor, a lot of the times sagat can kill easily with it…or stay back and tiger shot while the lower tier probably can’t. and that’s just a basic example.
gaining a bit of super meter from getting is kind enough of a comeback factor. but super high damage ultras/rage system could be done without. this is not, as someone said, mario party.
That’s not a valid answer to this question. I’m specifically asking how comeback mechanics can be blanced, which clearly means I’m talking about comeback mechanics, not absence of them.
Beats, you make a pretty good point. But I think that a game where the losing player has no options to fall back on besides ‘playing their way out’ (which is often near impossible in a lot of games where it’s very hard to avoid being hit or blocking an attack) is kind of boring for all concerned. Sometimes it’s easy for one player to slip up and their opponent can gain a crushing lead, which is pretty much match over. I just think that if at that point, another factor comes into play to make things more interesting, then the game won’t necessarily have to come to a predictable conclusion, and the winning player will be forced to keep playing their best to win right to the end.