If the rage system in Samurai Shodown counts, they did it right imo.
Hmm lets put Custom Combos, parries, ultras, supers, guardbreaks, rage meters, and a 99 second clock in the next OFFICIAL SF game (not some kind of mugen crap) lets see how that works out.
Oh yeah one hell of a comeback mess.
Older games have comeback mechanics so anyone saying that old games lack them is wrong. The difference is that newer comeback mechanics are only rewarded to losing players like SFIV’s ULTRA combos or Tekken 6BR’s RAGE system. Comeback mechanics exist in old games but they are implemented a bit differently compared to newer games. I’ll pit Super Turbo’s dizzies and SUPERS against SFIV’s ULTRA combos and T6BR’s RAGE for example.
Super Turbo has both dizzies and SUPERS. Dizzies allow for the potential for [media=youtube]O3wdoe2qFqo&#t=45"]huge free damage combos and SUPERS tack on the damage potential even further. The reason that people don’t hate the dizzy and SUPER mechanics that much in ST is that both of them are available to both players at any point (providing that they have built meter for SUPER). And you don’t need low health to use a SUPER or to dizzy your opponent. The way you dizzy your opponent is that you have to earn it by using the correct offensive techniques and attacks. Even SUPER meter building can be a [in Super Turbo. The way Taira builds meter in that clip takes more skill than most people in the world have. Meanwhile in SFIV or Tekken you simply get an advantage like that by losing. See the difference?
Things like ULTRA in SFIV are only available if you have lost life, and are usually on the losing end of a match, and the more you life that you have lost, the more powerful ULTRA combos become. And with Tekken 6BR’s RAGE system, a person greatly losing the fight, is given an artificially higher chance to comeback, because they gain an elevated boost in damage output when RAGE activates. The person who does not meet the RAGE requirements (meaning the person winning the match) now is up against someone who has a new mechanic in his or her arsenal simply because the person was losing.
[media=youtube]wz0byINrPLg&#t=2m25s"]Can](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEtCWmlud7c"[/media) anyone think of a game where you aren’t given any comeback mechanics that does [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqMmv1JU_hQ&feature=related&#t=2m50s”[/media]
Comebacks, by definition, are something losing players do/use. Otherwise what are you coming back from? While Tekken 6 and SF4’s systems are essentially artificial versions of the concept, they are videogames that can get away with such a thing. Those systems are very healthy additions to fighters.
And yeah, they are in fact available to both players. Because if a comeback works to a degree, the formally winning player will have his chance to use the systems as well.
no, a lot of times if the player isn’t playing perfectly (still has damage done to them)
the greatly losing player’s comeback mechanic can, and does plenty of times, win the game. sf4 and t6br being the games. cough sagat ultra cough
If they’re not playing perfectly how are they using these mechanics to win? Clearly they’re not as scrub as people would like to believe. It sounds like one of those excuses losing players would use, or better yet those after-the-fact disclaimers like, “You won but I’m still better than you.”
If a player uses a comeback mechanic to do just that, he bested you. End of story (and round).
i’m talking about the winning player…
and the rest of your argument is stupid and isn’t even addressing the point “you still lost” yeah, shut up with that
Really? Okay.
I think my argument is relevant to the topic at hand, albeit not the OP’s actual question (which was for people who disliked current comeback mechanics anyway).
Comeback mechanics are sticking around no matter how we feel about them, so I actually think this isn’t a bad topic.
First of all, I always prefer something that gives you real strategic decisions to make. Compare Baroque (save it all for one death combo or use a bunch of cancels for rushdown?) to Ultras and T6 rage, which are completely one-dimensional. Baroque isn’t even that great either, sure, but I’d still take it over the others.
I’m also not a fan of making these mechanics’ damage output too high, which is a tricky balancing act since you want people to always feel like they can win.
My favorite super meter systems have always been those which offer both offensive and defensive options, and I think comeback systems should do the same. That would force new players to think a little more and remove the need for over-the-top damage as well.
I definitely wouldn’t apply that last paragraph to SF4, though. More defense is the last thing that game needs, so I’d be fine with everyone having 2 ultras with different uses. I’d also like to see them reduce ultra damage across the board (except for Sim), completely change Seth’s ultra, and not allow you to get 2 ultras in a round.
Also, at a recent tournament I saw one of the Wii Naruto games and it had a variation on T6 rage that I wouldn’t mind seeing in a major game. The activation requirement was similar, but instead of “more damage” each character got a unique powerup of some sort. Some were just generic stat boosts, but some characters had move properties changed or were able to infinitely use moves that normally cost meter. It would be a lot of effort to balance this, obviously, but if done right it would be better than anything out there right now IMO.
well…addressing MY point. as you quoted my post.
I only really posted it in that way…because I’m in the middle of some online play.
but it still stands as far as I can see
Oh, well we don’t have a problem now do we?
:wonder:
no one can put it better than this. i really am not the biggest fan of a comeback system but i dont like it to the point of say, not buying the game that features it.
but holy hell Capcom, can we for the sake of god lower the damage on Ultras?
I define comeback mechanic as something that can be used to turn the tide of a match.
Most people act as if it’s a 100% chance of reversing the match though. But you forget that a lot of the time comeback tactics can be baited and still need to be applied.
Even if you’re winning, you should be given something to watch out for. That’s just one thing to keep your eye on, and you know your opponent is probably going to go for it because they don’t have many other options to win. That just means that the better player will use prediction and knowledge of the opponent’s options and will need to avoid making mistakes, despite their current position.
bingo
no
even then, a lot of times it’s enough to win because the winning player isn’t always at 100% health. or it can put it in still too great of a favor. yeah, maybe the other person will get the ultra or whatever…but at that time, it’s not as powerful because there’s not as much damage to do to the opponent since they’re at low health also. it’s stupid to have things like that
you always have something to watch out for, players coming back with skill and not just a comeback feature
I still see my points in my previous point not being addressed though. all you’re doing is repeating the dame trash you have been. because of tiers and not all ultras being created equal, it makes it MORE stupid.
you would still need to play careful to avoid being comebacked on without those features.
you shouldn’t have to keep your eye out for something that can totally turn the game around (as I’ve mentioned earlier)
Don’t make it so you can sit on the comeback mechanic. Make it deplete.
I feel like in most epic low health comebacks (in SF at least) the guy who gets robbed usually makes a bigass mistake that loses him the match. When you have an 80% health lead over your opponent, you have to play like you have an 80% health lead…NOT like youve already won and are just going to be handed victory at any second.
Heres an example from SF4 we’ve all seen. Sagat player is losing but has full ultra. Sagat player jumps in with a cr. LK, then does Tiger Uppercut (which hits because the non-Sagat tried to mash out throw or something) and then Sagat ends up winning.
A lot of people are just like “Bullshit! The game rewarded him for losing!” but the truth is the non-Sagat player has also made a really big mistake here and should realize it instead of bitching. Think: How else could the Sagat player make a comeback in this situation? He could throw you like 3 times and he still wont do the same damage as his combo into ultra. Also, if the Sagat player attempts the uppercut and you block it like a smart player, he doesnt get to try again unless he has more meter.
People gotta think about shit like that before they bitch about the comebacks in SF4. Also heres another example from 3rd Strike. Back in 3rd Strike there were no built-in comeback systems but the parry leads to a lot of bullshit comebacks anyway. A cornered Makoto will often guess parry into (or otherwise land) her karakusa into 100% stun SAII combo. People used to complain about shit like that all the time but now most people will just corner Makoto and then get the fuck out. Whats the point? If the Makoto player is gonna die, hes gonna die. Dont let him parry you into fucking super.
Exactly. Comeback mechanics won’t automatically win the other player the match. A truly skilled player should be able to take it into consideration and know what to look out for and expect.
If anything, it just makes your opponent more predictable, because you know they’re going to be going for the comeback. If you get hit by it, it’s entirely your own fault.
THIS!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:
i was sitting on a huge lead in mario party until the final round where i got royally screwed over thanks to the weakest link getting happily rewarded.:mad::mad::chainsaw::wtf::tdown:
Lol. Well Mario Kart and Mario Party are a bit extreme as examples I think.
So tell me, do you think that Smash Balls in Brawl are a good comeback mechanic then? After all, you need to chase it down to get them, and they’re TOTALLy random! 9_9
I think I understand why nobody likes gleam of force now, since that game’s comeback value is huge due to massive guts over the duration of the entire life bar.