How about simply letting the player gain bar faster or automaticaly at a fixed rate at around 10% health or something?
(Think BB had something like this (dunno percentage) and no-one seems to be complaining about it)
Or in a game with guard cancel type things that use bar how about reducing the cost of them after HP hits a certain level?
You know just a little help for a comeback and not something that is stronger then what you get for doing well. (cough**cough ultras cough)
you fight your way out with good fundamentals instead of BS tools to do it for you aka ultra.
Boring for who? a skill smith comeback in ST is so god like. The majority of the time its nothing but PURE sf skill.
[media=youtube]TlpKqkKd2dM[/media]
its all about fair mind game rotation. If I beat you on 4 mind game layers, you shouldn’t have to win 1 mind game layer to even the life back up like in sf4. The amount of layers you need to win to even the life back up should be relative. Also think about the amount of life an extra scoop is doing in sf4. With ryu qcf+p is what, 10% life IF that? but when its qcf, qcf+ppp, its like 40% total. For one extra scoop, you gain 30% extra life? what kind of bogus shit is that? you didn’t even earn anything. In mvc2, you pretty die in 1 hit @ high level play but you earn the combo. For magneto to kill 1 character no resets, he has to do 14-16 triangle jumps perfectly, 2 separate hcb to qcf motions, and probably 20-30 chain cancels. see the difference in the amount of execution needed for a comeback tool? in sf4, its an extra FB motion, thats it.
duh, stay solid. Thats why that phrase is there. You don’t want to be the guy down on life and if you are, you probably deserve to be down on life because you made mistakes. Now for you to get the lead back, you have to force your opponent to make mistakes. You do that by breaking his strategy down and look for openings. stuff that takes skill.
A comeback is not exciting when all that is required is Shoryu > Ultra.
I get Ultra. I hit the opponent with Ultra. The opponent now has Ultra. WTF…
That never made sense to me. With this equation I basically END UP in the same situation I was in before.
With this math, comeback mechanics will never work.
Plus, it doesn’t help that a huge anti-air/reversal/priority move that’s made safe with FADC turns into huge fucking damage for no reason.
Comeback mechanics.
Reminds me of playing friends in NBA Jam with computer assistance turned on.
AKA retarded.
Look no further than Rufus matches for a good example of this bad idea.
Right comeback mechanic:
-something that gives you a bonus, but also sacrifices something in return (like a super meter)
-that has restrictions
-that has 1 chance to be used, or some other limitation on its uses
Wrong comeback mechanic
-When after start the fight you have 50-60% of life left but managed to beat your opponent down to 40%, he has access to comeback mechanic that can take away those 50-60% of life that you have left (i.e. kill you on spot), and you dont have access to anything similar.
-Even moreso if that comeback mechanic can be spammed and used repeatedly
So split the community at the cost of letting everyone play their perfect game? No thanks :arazz:
heres how comeback mechanics can be done right:
everything does damage like its supposed to. ST and Alpha 2 got this right.
everything in ST does damage. look at bison in st compared to sf4. his b&b in sf4 does like no damage when its basically the same combo as in ST.
poking in sf4 doesnt get you far because normal moves alone does jack squat in sf4 compared to something fadc into ultra. with vega you can c.mp a million times a round in sf4 yet all it takes is one fadc into ultra
you cant fireball someone to death in a3/cvs2/3s because fireballs are either too slow(3s), does no damage (a3 sans shotos) or too much recovery (cvs2/3s).
alpha 2 and st are the only games where everything work like they supposed to
what does that have to do with comeback mechanics?
High damage, strong throws and strong knockdowns are all you need for perfectly viable but still meaningful comebacks. It’s all about rewarding the player who’s currently in control of the match with a strong amount of momentum, regardless of how much health you have… like ST, A2 and KOF do. Hell, even 3S really. Anything else is a gimmick. When’s the last time you were actually impressed by a comeback in SF4? Stuff like [media=youtube]-7nddEaWEDw[/media] is pathetic.
Of course, SF4 has fairly low damage (outside of random shit that does freakishly high damage), garbage throws, and garbage knockdowns so it makes sense that it needs some other kind of comeback mechanic. The solution is to fix the inherent problems with the engine and not to shoehorn some extraneous crap in there. Reminds me of Alpha 3, where you have the snowball effect of having to add guard bar and alpha counters just because you nerfed throws.
well if everything does damage like it should then making a comeback shouldnt be hard, no matter what style you play. notice how comebacks in sf4 are with characters with easy to land ultras.
compared to sf4, its not hard to make a comeback in ST since every character and everything (normals, throws, fireballs, combos, supers, etc) in that game does good damage.
That’s what I mean. I’m not talking about street fighter style games. SF4 is really the biggest exception. Most comeback functions usually appear in combo-oriented games where it’s very easy for the characters to overwhelm each other. So stuff like “high damage sweeps and throws” aren’t so reliable in something like TvC
If it’s so easy to overwhelm someone and establish a sizable lead then it must be equally possible for the other guy to take the advantage, overwhelm you and come back… maybe not in TvC since you can burst for 2 meters (most retarded system ever). Maybe that’s the problem.
If it’s impossible to maintain the advantage without taking damage yourself then that says that for some reason the system of momentum in the game isn’t strong enough, not that you need comeback mechanics. Alternatively: what are you doing getting dominated so much in a game that doesn’t allow you to do damage without getting hit? Surely in that case you don’t deserve to have it made easier for you to come back than it was for your opponent to establish the lead in the first place?
edit: I think the only basis on which you could argue that a game needs a comeback mechanic is that when you’re losing you actually have less options available to you. In MvC2 when you lose a character you are pretty fucked and a good 90% of the time you will lose. So yeah maybe TvC does warrant some kind of comeback mechanic in that sense (although from what I’ve seen having all your characters is nowhere near as important as in MvC2)… I don’t know, extra meter, higher damage or something? But then you remove the hype of one character comebacks which everyone loves to see.
ULTRA COMBO FINIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISH!!!111oneoneone
That’s really getting into a balance discussion. If damage was reduced by 30% in ST would comebacks be more difficult?
what would be reduced by 30%? everything or only some things?
if everything is reduced by 30%, i say maybe. i dont really know how to answer this but to an extent thats how a2 feels like. its not as damage heavy as st, but it has a fairly balanced sub system.
Megacrash in TvC is actually very well balanced. Can be used offensively AND defensively, is pretty expensive and also rips off a huge chunk of your health when you do it, which is pretty severe. It’s not possible to ‘overwhelm’ someone with just one character either unless…you use baroque and a lot of red life to knock out one of their characters and bring the match down to a 1 vs 1. If your opponent didn’t have 2 meter to get out when you started to use baroque, then that’s their problem and means they’ve been careless with their meter.
And yes, usually in TVC when you lose one character and your opponent has two, it’s still very bad news.
Extra meter seems like a fairly balanced comeback mechanic I suppose, but admittedly pretty boring as a solution.
Also keep in mind that comeback mechanics don’t always favour the disadvantaged player. Most of the time, they’re also there to make the final parts of the match more intense and exciting. If both you and your opponent are on low health, and you both have the handicap activated, then I don’t see anything wrong with that situation (And this is often the case when it’s two players of equal skill level)
besides, if you hit your opponent with something like an ultra when they’re at full health and you’re almost dead, then that is not going to turn the tide of the match unless the ultra itself is a 1-hit KO, especially not if they get an ultra immediately afterwards.
I think the most retarded thing about the ultra combo system in SF4 aside from the obvious things like how much damage Sagats does and how useless Guiles is etc is that you gain enough meter to use it when you lose around 50% health, it’s not full ultra but it’s ultra nonetheless. It should take more time to build ultra, they’re giving you a comeback mechanic mid-game. You should be given ultra when you’re on the brink of losing, like Tekken 6’s Rage system does.
I disagree, when you’re on the brink of losing people tend to play very conservatively, so it’s probably too risky to get into a situation where you can use the ultra, unless you’ve got plenty of meter. Let’s say you’re playing Ryu, presuming the opponent doesn’t do anything silly like jumping in from the wrong distance and giving you an easy AA DP you’re going to need to do a DP FADC. If you’ve got half life left, you can afford to throw a couple of DPs out and FADC forward if they hit and go into your ultra. If you’ve got 10% of health, you can die even by chip damage, so you can’t really afford to risk going for an ultra in case the DP whiffs and you get punished, so we’d really never see ultras.
But that’s just my opinion, I’m not an expert.
Oh, and with Abel, and probably other characters, the Ultra is a key part of your game, you can effectively shut down fireballs just with the threat of using it, and most combos are done with a view to finishing with ultra.
You have a good point, but ultras should be high risk/high reward moves that can turn the tide or win you the match if you land it succesfully, and lose you the match if you miss.
Full ultra should activate around 10-15% health and you should really get 1 chance to use it as a last ditch effort to win the match. It should only be used as a comeback tool, nothing more than that.