First part: No one has come up with a decent argument why it is an issue for F+HK but not an issue for LK Danku/LKTatsu which in addition to being 0F (and easily spacable to be + and have way more active frames.) also break armor, hit crouching, go over lows, covers backdash, do chip damage, build meter, and can be comboed out of. The best arguments presented were “Those are special moves” and “I don’t want something cheap.” which aren’t exactly arguments. The first argument explains nothing, the fact they are special moves is actually positive for them since they can be canceled into unlike F+HK which means they are EVEN better. The second one just comes off as “scrubby” mentality that is also used for things like “throws are cheap!” and low tier heroing (no offense to those people.)
Third part: I specifically stated nerfing the damage/stun down. How much it does now is moot. Also again: Sakura’s LK Tatsu can lead to 400+ damage 600+ stun and a hard knockdown + corner pressure situation on EVERY character, not just ‘some’.
BTW, in Alpha3 Cody’s F+HK COULD hit crouching it just didn’t reach far enough down to do so unless the opponent did a move that extended the hurtbox. In that game there was no FADCing a reversal, no invincible backdashes, guard crush, and Cody had his Vism dodge AND walked faster. All that and Cody was still only mid tier.
In SFxT Cody’s F+HK IS airborne, and it’s +2F on block because they further reduced the recovery, and it causes a free juggle state where any move can combo after. Cody is considered bottom 5-10 in that game now after he got nerfed to hell. Guess what? None of the nerfs were to F+HK.
There are more that enough precedents of moves functioning like F+HK in the history of SF and in SF4 that it hitting crouching + being airborne wouldn’t be a problem as long as they toned down the damage a little bit.
There ARE things more important to give Cody (better walk speed/a low hit confirm/safer LP Criminal upper) but so far there hasn’t been a decent argument against F+HK hitting crouching being so good that nerfing the damage/stun by nearly 40% wouldn’t balance.
It outranges any move you’re comparing it to. Heck it probably outranges any low in the game (sans the obvious exceptions like rufus cr.hp) making it so that if cody is at a 1/4 of a screen in front of you you’re scared shitless to press anything. You could guess a focus but he has zonk and mk ruffian.
Plus the move has a faster startup and lower total frame count (i think, wiki is off) than the “comparable” options.
As for LK Tatsu, or tatsu’s in general most don’t hit crouching opponents, except for Evil Shoto’s and Ken only up close. Maybe you ment Dan’s. His knee doesn’t really lead to any real damage or anything that crack kick or sakura’s light tatsu offers. That range is also lacking. I wouldn’t throw it out while playing footsies cuz it’s easily whiff punished. This isn’t the case with Crack Kick. The recovery is already really good on whiff, and making hit crouching would mean that that it probably wont miss. Basically i think it’s uses are totally different from Crack kick which can also be used as a poke. It’s basically just a pressure tool.
I’m actually ok with sakura getting tons of damage off her throw tech trap. She’s got 900 health compared to cody and has a wakeup game that equally bad. Beside’s 290 off a crack kick is good enough. I fear the problem with making it hit crouching opponents is that it would do everything and too difficult to punish. Great poke, Plus on block, very hard to whiff punish, leads to good damage. There’s no good way of countering it except focus attack and even then I’m sure cody would recover b4 getting punished because of the crazy recovery. Neutral jumps dont work either because again they either get hit on the way up or it recovers too quick and then cody can back MP opponents as they come down. Crouching pokes is literally the only good way to counter it at this point. What’s wrong with that?
As for the other games, that just it, they are different games using different engines. It’s hard to compare when balancing.
There is so much wrong with your post I think I’ll go one by one.
Every tatsu hits crouching on first hit bare minimum except for LKs for shotos because those are usually 1 hit (Akuma/Ryu/Evil Ryu EX tatsu hits crouching on every hit.)
Recovery on LK Danku is 10F after active frames end (17F for air version though). Recovery on F+HK is 12F
Also LK Dankick can hit crossup vs crouching opponents in the corner and can combo directly into ultra 2 from it. Also it has a ton of active frames. (11F IIRC) and Dan has an SRK.
Sakura has 950 health and 1000stun. Her wakeup is far better than Cody’s, she has a 3F chainable crLK and a 3F sHP that can anti air neutral jumps, her EX Shooken is 12F startup and 13F invincible and FADCable at multiple points so you can hit/block confirm it (As a matter of fact if you FADC during the 2nd part she is PLUS ON BLOCK). Also it will put her on the other side of the screen if the opponent neutral jumped and it whiffed. And the hitbox is about 300% the size of EX Zonk or the first hit of EX Criminal Upper. Also her backdash goes slightly farther and has almost double the airborne frames Cody has so it’s harder to get a grounded punish.
You can easily beat F+HK with a focus attack. The recovery leaves plenty of time for a release. As a matter of fact you can even beat Ibuki’s F+MK which has 11F recovery (including the active frames) compared to Cody’s 14F (including active frames.)
Lastly, the hitbox for F+HK is ENTIRELY surrounded by hurtbox, this means it has an EXTREMELY high chance at trading with most normals (including crouching if it could hit crouching.) and is easily stuffed simply by throwing out the occasional sLP, the only reason people DON’T use standing jabs to beat F+HK is because there is a CHANCE of failure where as with crLP there is literally ZERO % chance of failure since even if you whiff Cody can’t hit you and it can NEVER trade.
I am alone on this one, mostly because none of you are doing your homework. The biggest reason it has a lower frame count (in the instances it does) is because it has only 3F active while most of the other moves have more active frames. It has a faster startup, fine true, but it doesn’t break armor and can’t be canceled into. The other options can be used as much tighter frame traps. The only reason that they are slower to startup is to prevent comboing into them from lights. Sakura’s LK Tatsu has 6F active. Total frame count is 37F. BTW don’t forget, Sakura and Dan have redonkulous EX Versions of their tatsus as get in any time you have meter options if you want to take about “get in free” shit. Sakura’s even in USF4 ignores projectiles, breaks armor on all hits, does 135 damage 140stun causes a free juggle state, and is +2F on block. Dan’s is 8F startup 10F active 5+9F recovery meaning it’s total frame count is only 3F longer than Cody’s F+HK, and it does 120 damage 250stun while being AT WORST -3F on block but able to be spaced to be as much as +6F while breaking armor.
The number of crouching attacks F+HK out ranges is very high, but so is the number of crouching it DOESN’T out range. It’s far more than stuff like Rufus’ crHP. I could compile a list but I’d be here forever. However the other fact is that Cody is also far less mobile a character than anyone with a comparable move, period. Dan, Sakura, Vega, ect. All have either better walk speeds, better dashes (forward and back), kara throws, and/or the ability to alter their jump arc (or all of them!)
Stuff like: Gen’s crMP/crHK in mantis. Fei’s crHP. Most of Vega’s crouching attacks. Evil Ryu’s crMK. Evil Ryu/Akuma/Rose/Balrog/Rufus/Chun’s crHKs. Adon’s crHP these all have ranges comparable to F+HK (especially given the mobility differences)
I agree he has more important areas to be buffed. But the fact remains he wouldn’t be OP with this unless they gave him some crazy other shit.
Either all of us send sensible e-mails to Capcom or hope they listen, or we show up at the loctests with megaphones. I genuinely don’t know which one would be more effective, but I know which one would be easier D:
Just write on a cardbox cutout “MAKE CODY BETTER” and hang it around your neck.
Alternatively, you can wish for a certain buff. That surely stands out. ^^
You want that move to have too many things. It’s not about the damage it can do. With your change: it’s a long range, plus on block, no spacing needed, footsie tool, pressure tool, option-select, airborne, combo-able, hit confirmable NORMAL (not special) that moves Cody significantly forward, can blow up st. teching, cr. teching and can’t be whiff punished. Oh, and if you hit him out of it he resets. There is no move in the game that can be used as freely as crack kick that has those attributes.
You’re saying Dan does this, Fei has that and Evil Ryu has this option, so Crack Kick should get all of those things. That doesn’t make sense. It has nothing to do with people not doing their research. I mean, you’re even bringing up EX moves man. This is a unique attack. It’s not a special. You’re turning what is more of a footsie tool into a pressure tool. And while it sounds awesome, it doesn’t make sense. The only weakness to the tool is that it can be focused.
Everything that you’ve mentioned like Fei’s cr. HP, Evil Ryu’s Hop kick and cr. MK, Guile’s flip kick, Sakura and Dan Tatsus, various sweeps either aren’t comboable, aren’t off the ground, can’t be used as a pressure tool, don’t move them forward and/or aren’t safe. All of those fit multiple categories (with one exception, see below). Crack kick would not fit ANY of them.
I grabbed a few things just to compare and layout what Cody’s Crack Kick will look like according to what you’re suggesting:
By hit confirm, I mean do damage after you land it. For the record.
The only thing that really compares to your version of crack kick is Sakura’s LK Tatsu. Which does break armor, but has less range, can’t close the distance on the screen fairly quickly, isn’t a footsie tool, is slower and less advantageous on block. Yes, the damage she can get off of it is higher, true, but it’s her best special in the game. It isn’t a unique attack. No will argue that Sakura’s LK Tatsu isn’t better than any version of crack kick, but again…it’s a special…and her best special… It’s one of her best 3 tools in her arsenal.
But really, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m not going to try to convince you to believe differently. But don’t say it’s because other people don’t do their research. That’s just insulting.
Great my post is “pending approval”. Anyway Ramma said it way better than I ever could.
But just to add, in that video you’re focusing largely in anticipation of the f.hk, before or just as Cody starts the move. In those cases yes, a focus attack is the system mechanic designed against moves with high frame counts. Hell, if most focus attacks are 18+11 you have to do it at least 1 frame before Cody does f.hk to get a crumple since the total duration is 28 frames.
You mixed up Cosmic heel and piece of mercury. Piece of Mercury is 20F startup hits over. Cosmic heel is 13F startup -3F on block (5F active). The frame data on it is identical to Cody’s F+HK except it has 2F more active frames.
I only mentioned Fei’s crHP as a move with similar reach. Same with those sweeps. It was a reply to Otori.
The only reason you don’t see Sakura use LK Tatsu for footsies (more) is she doesn’t need it. She has the fastest walk speed and a far reaching 3F sLK and far reaching 5F crMK that she can buffer into an FADCable special that she can confirm hit/block.
Also again, you have to take into account active frames. Dan’s LK Tatsu can be as much as +9F on block (usually it’s around +5-6F if you don’t stand block it every time.) Sakura’s LK tatsu can be as much as +5F on block.
The best point made so far is the reach is farther than every move (other Cosmic Heel) that functions the same, that is legitimately good point.
Also, your frame data is wrong. Either F+HK is 13F startup and you need to subtract 1F startup from everything else you listed since you didn’t count the first active frame as part of F+HK startup OR F+HK is 14F startup. All of the other moves you listed their first active frame as part of the startup (how most wikis list it), that is a bit misleading.
Also you can confirm damage after LK Danku (combos into EX KRK or U2, though U2 is a tougher to recognize link due to the need to react faster.)
Cosmic Heel is a free juggle state that you can combo ANYTHING after (as long as you have charge) and it launches higher than F+HK. A common combo is cosmic heel - slide for corner control + hard knockdown. Cosmic heel is used for pressure but mostly just to start pressure as it moves Vega quickly forward (it moves faster than F+HK) and can be + on block thanks to long active frames. However it’s not needed for that due to Vega’s incredible mobility.
Evil Ryu’s F+MK cancels to his tatsus for additional damage.
Guile’s flip kick isn’t technically off the ground, however it IS throw invincible which is what you want F+HK to be airborne for.
Again though, every character listed also has significantly better overall mobility (not just walk speed.
Thing is, I wouldn’t even put F+HK hitting crouching in my top 6 most wanted buffs (even without Vism dodge :P) I just think you guys are (mostly) applying poor arguments and myopic views. So far the best argument has been almost accidental with Otori mentioning the reach on the move being better than most crouching attacks got me thinking about comparing the reach on the move vs similar types of moves as a legit balance concern.
For claification top 6 non-new move buffs for me:
Improve walk speed (0.041 or 42 forward 0.027 backward. Make him fast enough to actually gain ground vs characters with 0.04 backwards walk speeds as well as give him the more important ability to control his spacing for footsies.)
Reduce backdash frame count to 24F and/or increase distance (if no reduction to frame count, then buff distance dramatically. Otherwise just a small buff is fine.)
LP Criminal Upper -3F on block (20dmg nerf to this for compensation would be OK IMO, 140 would be a bit too much dmg given the chip it does.)
F+HK airborne 5F-end of active frames (or until fully recovered.)
sLK hits low
Badstone startup reduced to 24 or 25F for all versions. (Reduce stun from 150 to 120 would be a fair compensation nerf IMO)
I too would take airborne over hitting crouching for F+HK if I had to choose one or the other.
All I know is I get infuriated every time I get cr.jab’d out of crack kick. Why does a jab beat a roundhouse? An airborne roundhouse at that. Airborne from 5f is ok, but it should be airborne from 2f. Also, it seems like they are intent on making Cody players use the knife but the buffs to the knife are completely useless. And it seems like it’d be a corner only type thing.
-Knife Normals are now special cancel-able (s.mp only cancel-able after first hit, second hit if counter hit)
-New normal with the knife. Knife Play (or some other name, hell iono) is Cody’s new normal. The command is F.MP, same frame data as Stomach Blow (F.MP without knife).
-S.MP with the knife is special cancel-able only during first hit, 2nd hit if counter hit. (I made this for people that refuse to read.)
-Chip damage with the knife up from 8% to 18%
-No longer drops knife when tech throwing or during a focus attack. Knife is only dropped during a soft or hard knockdown or if the player throws the knife.
-Knife throw from 26f to 18f. Cancels out all normal projectiles and one hit of projectiles with more than one hit.
-Standing lp (with knife) from 4f to 3f. Standing mp (with knife) from 6f to 5f. Standing hp (with knife) from 8f to 7f.
Just some ideas. I read your post Eternal and they were good changes. I only concentrated on the knife as that seems to be how they are going to buff him.
You can actually combo after ANY float state with the knife. That includes f.HK (said by the devs). I’d wager that you can hk ruffian FADC j.FP / s.HP or something as well.
But you lose the knife when you charge or release a focus in this game :’(
After playing a bunch of other characters the last month, mainly Yun and Guy i really want Cody to have a good(average) walkspeed and of all the buffs this would help him the most(imo).
Forward 0.040-0.045
Backward 0.030-0.035
(Around Ken and Ryu forward and backward walkspeed)
The lower numbers should be the least we can expect if he gets a better walkspeed(yeah right), biggest problem is his backwards walkspeed which hurts him the most.
I honestly think asking for this much isn’t overzealous, puts him right in the middle.
In all honesty though, if you have a twitter, i’d suggest bothering Combofiend about it. I try asking/tweeting/saying something every now and then but i’m pretty sure I get ignored. But if more than 1 talk about cody on the same issue or just in general, i’m sure something is bound to happen.
