Cody USF4 General Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
461

Eternal i’m not one of those players who wants Cody to remain “bad” at ALL, i want tons of buffs for this characters, however i’m being realistic that if you push too many buffs they’ll pick the ones that will have less of an impact. If Cody gets some of the other buffs does he really nee his crackkick to still hit crouchers, is it a true problem area for him? I also don’t say at the end of a match “i worked for this win because my character has it oh so difficult boo hoo”.

I want crack kick to be airborne faster, and if it ends up hitting crouchers then ofcourse i’ll take it. The move travels a fair distance and goes over lows. I honestly feel the move would be really abusable when it will hit crouchers. Regardless of it’s relatively long startup, it only bing one hit so it’s easy to focus, it being easy to whiff punish this move. If it is faster airborne we won’t get get fully punished when someone hits cr.lp but we get air reset. But hey, agree to disagree.

462

Crack kick is better not hitting crouchers imo.

Let’s make Cody better. His crack kick is good now. The airborne frames need to be faster. That much is true.

Walk speed buff - most important thing he needs.

463

Completely agree Ramma. That and Throw invl will be just fine. I’d fine with losing all the knife buffs in exchange.

464

I’m fine with Cody losing the knife entirely. :X

465

they should have a knife off mode. I’d rather have nothing in exchange for being able to triple plink cr.hp in the middle of the screen (some matchup exceptions)

466

Really, just remove it. It’s a failed concept and it only hurts us, since that useless thing takes away buff slots =(

467

Explain. Why is it better?

Everyone here keeps saying “it’s better if it doesn’t hit crouchers.” or “that’d be too good.”

Nobody has made any sort of attempt to back that up with any sort of explanation and I find it really annoying. You can’t just make a blanket “nope” with no sort of reason. I can give you a lengthy post why it IS BETTER with hitting crouching vs not. You can at least give me 2-3 sentences on why it would not be :confused:

note: I covered why having it whiff so you can go for a POTENTIAL punish of whatever low you avoided is worse than having it hit and KNOW you’ll punish it. Whiffing F+HK and going for a frame trap or throw attempt is both gimmicky and far more risky for not much more reward than simply doing F+HK and having it hit and going for a followup (or having it blocked and being able to put the opponent in blockstun as well as gain meter and go for frame traps.)

Having it always whiff crouching is a bad design. It does as far as I can tell nothing that wouldn’t be simply more consistent if it HIT crouching. Trying to use F+HK as a meaty means it would lose to wake up crLP. Trying to use F+HK in footsies means it would lose to crLP or get punished even if it avoided a low because of the total frame count being too high (29F means that even if you do your F+HK FIRST Ryu usually recovers from his crMK in time to do a crLP and either punish you or get a counterhit from you trying to pressure him since his crMK is only 22F)

Whiffing vs crouching means it ALWAYS loses to slides if it doesn’t hop over them. It will always lose to Cammy’s spiral arrow or Bison’s crHK or Guy’s crHK or Vega’s crHK (unless you do the F+HK at point blank).

Making it airborne in an attempt to make it beat throws means it will still lose to delayed crouch techs. You only fix ONE of the two major issues Cody has when frame trapping.

The only way having it whiff crouching would be good is if they made it not a flag to whiff crouching but simply made Cody hop higher off the ground so he could avoid more attacks and the F+HK would still hit distended hurtboxes like Ibuki’s crMP. Plus that would result in allowing Cody to hop over crouching opponents and switch sides in a similar fashion to Blanka’s forward hop.

But if left as-is in terms of height it SHOULD hit crouching.

468

I don’t care if it hits crouchers to be honest. All I want is that it is airborne, and fast at that, so it avoids lows.

469

Crack Kick is a strong tool. It’s becoming airborne. You have a strong tool getting buffed. Maybe better isn’t the right word as much as FAIR is the right word.

An airborne, plus on block, reaction combo-able/juggle-able, croucher hitting, low normal avoiding (and possibly corpse hopping) unique attack doesn’t seem a little overpowered to you? Evil Ryu has it, but his is a bit slower, not plus on block, and to combo from it you need to unsafely (if blocked) cancel it to begin with.

That aside, if it hits low, it would, as a balance, not be able to hop over lows. Whatever Capcom is going to take in exchange for having it hit crouchers…is not worth it. Going over lows and getting that throw set-up going or some sort of combo going is good enough and strong enough.

Cody having to deal with delayed frame techs is just something he’ll have to deal with. Cody having an airborne crack kick is another tool to deal with stand teching…even if it’s not perfect. I have set-ups to deal with delayed techs, other players do too. Cody having a weakness to his offense is balanced.

There are so many more buffs Cody needs more than crack kick hitting crouchers. The tool is strong enough. It doesn’t need improvements at this point. It’s like buffing EX Zonk…why even bother? Let’s put something on the table that’s worth trying to get.

Better walkspeed, fixing the frames on airborne crack kick, making the knife more viable if they are that focused on it, fixing EX Ruffian Kick, hell even LP CU being -4 instead of -5…all of these and more are much more important to Cody than a second crack kick improvement.

470

So your view is “Fair” but again stop trying to keep Cody as a “I worked for my wins this is fair” character and look at what he NEEDS.

As for the “airborne, + on block, hops over lows, can be comboed after”

  1. I proposed a drastic damage nerf.
  2. Vega’s Cosmic heel has 5F active and can be spaced to be + on block, causes a free juggle, goes over lows, can cross over on blocking opponents who are crouching, hits lows. (and may or may not end up being +2F at point blank in USF4)
  3. I bring this one up a lot: LK Dan kick and Sakura’s LK tatsu and Vipers IABurn Kick. Rose’s close MK. Guile’s F+HK. Rufus’ IA Dive kick. Makoto’s IATsurugi. Blanka’s close MK (in ultra will be airborne on 3F. Also hits twice, and is special cancelable), Ryu/Akuma/Oni/Evil Ryu MK/HK/EX Tatsu (first hit forces stand moves are -1F on block only can’t be focused.) Adon IAJaguar Kick, Cammy dive kicks (esp EX),

There are TONS of examples of moves very similar that avoid lows, are either 0F, -1F, or even + on block. Are unthrowable or airborne. Can be comboed after. And to top it off, a lot of them are special moves meaning that they can canceled from normals making the frame traps much tighter.

Cody’s F+HK would still be very susceptible to focus attacks. Would still be on one of the slower characters (even if he got a walk speed buff). Would still be a move with a hurtbox entirely surrounded by hitbox. Would still be low profilable by moves that lower the hurtbox.

Why can’t Cody have a move that people actually have to worry about?

Also don’t forget, they’ve pretty much settled on making EX Criminal Upper 1-6F strike/projectile invincible with no throw invincibility.

I’m open to the idea I’m wrong on this given how many of you disagree with me, but I’ve yet to hear an argument that wasn’t about “it’s not fair” or presented situations that there weren’t already precedents of in the game often on characters with similar playstyles and far far more mobility.

471

There probably isn’t much of a argument because crack kick hitting crouchers isn’t on anyone’s mind on helping Cody’s overall game improve. Considering the move already is pretty good as Ramma stated. (+on block? easily hit confirmable follow up? airborne frames getting added? corpse hops being added?) If you give crack kick the ability to hit crouchers, he’s pretty much getting a free way in. Which in turn is more than likely going to lose something in return for this change. (no airborne frames or less airborne frames, unsafe on block or no ability to followup after hit. something’s going to be loss.)

Though to be fair, if Cody had a better walkspeed, he wouldn’t need a suggestion like crack kick hitting crouchers because he’d have something to work with to play in the neutral game. Even if cody didn’t get a walkspeed buff I wouldn’t want crack kick hitting crouchers because I want my opponent to respect crack kick in mid-close range footsies and worry about trying to do cr.short/cr.jab or some low. Crack kick hitting crouchers may give you easy damage but you could get more if it doesn’t hit crouchers along with just a simple mixup by doing it from mid-close range. You lose that ability if they’re already downbacking. if they get hit while crouching and get MK ruffian followup ok fine. Opponent gets knocked down, pushed away from Cody, and got some space (with the soft knockdown). That’s fine and all but I just lost my position of being close to the opponent. if I wanted to gain space or push them to the corner, just buffer cr.LP>MK Ruffian. But if I want to be in their face with them standing so I can start pressure without a knockdown, i’m going to use crack kick because it doesn’t hit crouchers, moves me forward, and gives me some momentum without having to knock the opponent down. On top of that, i’ll recover before the opponent if they did throw out a low and I can start something from there.

472

Except it’s not a “free way in” any more than Sakura’s LK tatsu or Dan’s LK Danku or Makoto’s IA Tsurugi or Adon’s IA Jaguar Kick or Sagat’s EX Tiger Knee or tons of other moves that are either -1F 0F or + on block (and ALL of them have more active frames than Cody’s F+HK meaning they can be even more + on block and many of them break armor.

No you wont unless it was a sweep or you did the F+Hk very early. I just explained that. F+HK = 29F total. Most mids are 20-25F. That is a big part of why the Evil Ryu matchup is tough. His crMK is 26F, outranges most of Cody’s anti low normals and his walk speed is better and his damage is better. Often times doing a F+HK to get over an expected crMK results in you getting counterhit by Evil Ryu’s 3F crLP after you hop over the low or getting baited and eating a premptive crLP/crMP when you expected crMK

If F+HK hit crouching you’d be able to get the opponent into a better position much quicker. Namely: In the corner.

Unless they make F+HK airborne like 5F until fully recovered then you’ll still be very susceptible to focus crumples or getting counterhit when trying to go for a crLP after a whiffed F+HK.

Or an EX Ruffian - EX Criminal Upper or an EX Criminal upper raw followup or a F+MP reset or just a jump in crossup or not situation after a quick rise.

They have no reason to worry about trying to do a crLK or crLP when respecting F+HK. As a matter of fact those moves specifically BEAT F+HK. 95% of character’s crLP will hit Cody during the F+HK and the crLK will always recover well before Cody does. Even the slowest crLKs are about HALF the frame count of F+HK.

As a matter of fact, the threat of eating ~200 damage for throwing out a crLK/crLP at the wrong time would INCREASE their respecting of that move. Good players REGULARLY do crLP during footsies vs Cody at mid range specifically to stop his F+HK because crLP is literally a 100% hard counter with ZERO risk because it can’t ever be hit by F+HK.

But that is the exact issue. It’s a gimmicky gamble. You are taking a unneeded risk for a MAYBE. Guarantees almost always trump maybes. That is why you so rarely see Seth win tournaments. A low risk mid reward character like Akuma is far better than a high risk high reward character like Seth because CONSISTENCY pays off more in long sets and in varied match ups.

For F+HK to work how you want it to, you need to be doing it ~10F BEFORE the opponent does anything. Meaning you are making a guess. If they do NOTHING however that guess results you in gaining nothing and being in a situation where you are now betting that the opponents reactions aren’t fast enough and they wont tech your throw or hit their crLP/crLK before you go for a crLP to frame trap.

Regularly betting against another persons reactions at high level results you losing more than winning. Again, more gambling and inconsistencies added to your gameplan.

I do appreciate you at least giving an argument beyond “fairness” and trying to present a REASON.

473

It comes down to this Eternal: Cody doesn’t NEED crack kick to hit crouchers. You’re talking about what he needs…crack kick isn’t it. And yes, I think the tool will be too strong. It doesn’t need to be spaced well. It’s airborne. It’s a great option select. It’s got long range. It juggles. It combos (included into Ultra in the corner). It’s safe (+1 on block). You basically won’t be able to whiff punish it because it’ll almost never whiff. If you hit him out of it, he resets because he’s airborne. Just short of being a two hitting normal or armor breaking, it basically has everything. You’re asking for too much. I don’t think anyone wants crack kick to become anything more than a stand tech punish but you. It’s just not needed. I get your justification for why Cody could have it. I see no reason why he needs it. It’s not just about “I want to earn my wins” from my perspective. I don’t see why he needs it over so many other things.

Cody’s crack kick is comparable to Evil Ryu’s hop kick, Guile’s flip kick or Juri’s overhead, for the record. It’s not comparable to LK Tatsu (Dan or Sakura) or Jaguar Kick or anything like that. Those are specials. Crack Kick is a unique normal.

Cody is getting next to nothing in this update. If we are going to make any sort of rally to get Capcom to give Cody one more buff, it’s a walk speed buff. That addresses a lot of things Cody needs. Crack kick hitting lows addresses nothing. It’s just a cool tool to have.

474

While I don’t think f.HK hitting crouchers is a completely necessary buff(unlike early airborne frames, which would greatly help him deal with stand teching), I would definitely welcome it. It would make the move very powerful, but as you could still low profile it, focus it or even just beat it outright with a faster normal, I don’t think it would be too good. So, yeah, I think it would be worth asking for, although I’d put the question of it hitting crouchers separate from the airborne frames. Again, one of these is fairly important, another is just something that would be really good.

Also, keep in mind that nerfing the damage/stun of the move as a trade-off would affect several of his combos. Getting 30 damage shaved off of EX Zonk FADC-combos and HK Ruffian FADC-combos does matter.

475

I’m still at a loss on why FADC off normal Zonk is still in. As if it’s supposed to benefit from anything.

476

So how do we go about addressing the issues properly to capcom? Do they still read the unity board or do you have to talk to them at the locktests?

477

There is no sense in doing anything. We have done all we could. Capcom refused to listen to us as a community, to as as players suggesting changes and to us giving them detailed feedback at the loc test. You either can convince Combofiend himself (unlikely) or sit still and wait for Ultra.

478

yea i’ve pretty much given up hope. I can try again at Final Round but I really don’t expect much change considering Capcom hasn’t done much with Cody this late in the testing and the game drops in Japan in what…next month?

479

The first part is true, walk speed does address a lot of his problems. The 2nd part however is not. F+HK ALSO addresses a number of problems.

  1. It gives him improved corner carry ability which is the position he is actually pretty strong in.
  2. It gives a tool that beats delayed crouch tech AND stand tech (assuming airborne even just from 6F until end of active frames or even 8F but used from a distance.)
  3. It improves his mobility as it forces players to respect F+HK MORE than they do now as he will be able to beat crouching moves. This means that they have to be cautious about throwing out the occasional crLP/crMP/high hitting low (Chun’s sweep). This means Cody can more freely do focus dash or go for overheads which preemptive crLPs beat.

Walk speed would be far more important. But F+HK is still something that would add a lot to him.

480

People are making an awful lot of noise about Crack Kick hitting crouchers. I for one think it would make the move too powerful. It doesn’t have a bad hit box by any means and it has some decent horizontal movement. This given all its other good properties like +1 on block, people could recklessly throw it out as a long range poke without any fear of punishment if opponents could not crouch under it. As a result it would have to be negative on block to make it fair. It’d be too easy to apply pressure otherwise.

Rather I’m a fan of making the Crack Kick airborne on frame 1 or just earlier than it is now. With more airborne frames he’ll have crazy setups. Lemme explain…

Players have recently loved safe jumping with a light button in the air and immediately throw. The low hitstun on light rather than a fierce throws off people’s tech timing like hell. People get thrown a lot because of this. Now let’s take the setup even further. Imagine cody setting up his back throw into jab safejump --> crack kick to blow up the throw tech into the follow up of your choice. What’s even crazier is that the Crack Kick will also cover a back dash if your opponent chooses that option as well. This moderately easy OS covers both the back dash and throw tech option and leads to 240-300+ damage.

For specific characters, cody can combo Crack Kick xx Crack Kick xx Ex CU. for 300+ damage and 500+ stun. If you can get some good pressure in and then bait out a tech throw or a back dash into this, stunning people is only going to get easier with with cody. Learn this link and the specific characters, it’ll be worth it. From what I’ve tested it works on Seth, Cammy, Balrog, Rose, Deejay, dhalsim, Viper, Vega, and T. Hawk. The list might even be longer in Ultra.

My take on it is don’t worry about whether the crack is going to hit crouching opponents. It’ll probably make it too good and then they’ll have to end up nerfing it some other aspect of like having more recovery frames. We don’t want this cuz the recovery is pretty godlike on whiff at the moment. I’m hoping for that those extra airborne frames become a reality. It’ll give him more traps to work and make his close up game even more deadly