Why would you not give a zoning character a zoning assist? You can give a point character 2 assists btw…not just one. If by lockdown you mean rushdown then lockdown + lockdown assist has been running Vanilla MVC3 for a while. A zoning based character with a zoning assist gets that much more of a boost in their zoning since they can get an assist to cover the start up/recovery of their zoning moves.
The reasons for Zero having better rushdown than Strider are not really knowledgeable I’ll say that much. Strider is going to be another sword rushdown character so just like Zero, nobody is going to be able to compete with his pokes unless they have swords also.
I’d give zoning characters high priority assists. Gotta get em off once they’re in considering pure zoning in MVC3 really doesn’t work out all that often. I guess you could have a beam assist as well as something like Haggar/Tron for layered zoning, but I’d prefer to be prepared for when Wolverine inevitably gets in.
And yeah, it’s definitely too early to be comparing Zero and Strider. All they have in common is swords at this point and their rushdown is already pretty distinct.
I mean whatever you wanna give them is cool I guess. I’m just saying it all benefits them in some way. Not just one over the other and if your main point character is a zoning character they most likely need 2 solid assists any way. If the zoning character is your point character there’s nothing to prefer…you just stock them with both.
If you just stock them with one high priority assist then it will be easier to get in on them in the first place and then they just have to sit and block for the assist. If you give a zoning character a solid zoning assist that will give you more time to keep them from getting in to begin with. If you wanna take care of both then have both on the team.
High priority assists work better for rushdown characters any way since they can get much more immediate payoff from them by setting up near unblockable mix ups off them that a strictly zoning character wont. Which is why Strange won’t be a strictly zoning character since his teleport will allow those assists to set up 50/50s from him from near anywhere on screen. Which will allow him to turn his zoning into rush once he gets shit on the screen.
This reply is just so irrelevant to any thing i said. Watch your comprehension now.
I haven’t forgotten my own point at all… i’m showing how your example was just flat out invalid, furthermore it had no point. Phoenix gives better damage than the characters you’ve listed, hense making her a better rushdown character.
But in the end Phoenix is at a higher tier than Spider, and what makes her a higher tier? You’re going off about spiderman giving better damage, so please explain as to why Phoenix is still rated the highest in Tier S Vanilla. I hope you don’t think her runaway fireball spamming is the main reason why she is class S. I really hope you do realize how invalid most your points are in regards of this topic. The next time you give an example, make sure the example is an actual valid comparison.
What do u guys think of Strider’s anchor abilities?
I have thought about saving all the meter for him, then letting him loose with Level 3 XF. If this seems like a bad idea, where do you guys think he should be placed in a team?
Strider will be a great anchor… he will also be a great point/2nd… I believe that (like Doom) he can fit in anywhere on the team so if youre gonna anchor him youll need two chars that hopefully benefit from his assist and that can build meter. They also need to have decent health considering your anchor is gonna be risky enough as it is with only 700k health (give or take)
But tbh, you dont need to pick a spot for Strider... lets say you go Doom/Strider/Vergil... youre up against a Magneto/Sentinel/Phoenix… now you usually use Doom on point so he can build meter for Strider, but in this case putting Doom vs Magneto is a bad idea, youd rather have Strider go first cz he can fight the magz matchup better AND he will have better mixups when he snaps in Phoenix. Guess what Im trying to say is, don`t limit yourself by giving strider only one role on the team. Chars such as Doom/Strider/Taskmaster etc. can fit in pretty much everywhere…
Depends really on how good the Vajra assist is. It no longer causes ground bounce and seems to be easier to punish, so I am not convinced it’s a viable assist to build your team around of.
Well as far as punishing it concerns it seems like the start up will be the issue for the vajira assist. He comes out on screen and makes a pose in the middle of the screen where you can hit him…before he even teleports. Which means you can’t just call him like Akuma and expect magic to happen a few frames later. I do think the assist’s unique ability to track your opponent no matter where they are on screen will prove to have some interesting uses. On my team Strange’s discs or bolts assist will be the main assist he takes advantage of any way.
If the assist doesn’t prove to be useful enough that Strange could use it by himself if Vergile dies…I might think about putting Strider second and Strange last instead but I’ll see. I’d like to take advantage of level 3 XF Ouro first also and see how that works. Plus I’m thinking Strange’s ability counter, zone and teleport around shit will give him more time to safely set up the vajira assist any way.
You really have forgotten where we started haven’t you? I will make this simple: of course Phoenix is better than Spider-man. I am not saying Spider-man is better because he has better rushdown and better health. I was using that as an example as to why you were being an idiot when you were claiming Zero was a better character than Strider on the basis of health and damage alone. Point being, by that logic Spider-man would be higher tier than Phoenix and we know that is patently absurd.
Do you comprehend? Actually, nevermind. I’m not letting you derail this topic into a premature tier thread.
I think his point is that Phoenix and Spiderman plays nothing alike, but Zero and Strider on the other hand are similar characters. Both are low health character with high priority normals, lots of trickly setups, great speed, very mobile, very hard for their opponents to hit them and with lots of combo extending tools. If Zero does more damage than Strider while having marginally more health, and at the same time being simpler to be effective in, then Strider has to have something significantly better than Zero or there’s no reason to use him. Don’t forget that Zero now can cancel his lvl 3 buster into any special, which is likely to be one of the most broken things in UMvC3. I mean, Strider has the orbs but Zero’s lvl 3 is nasty too and it’s not like either of them needs help in opening up people.
It’s just like the old “why bother using X23 or Felicia when you can Berserker slash, Berserker charge and dive kick”?
He’s saying that Phoenix is specifically better at rushdown style purely because of damage. Not only is that logically wrong, it’s factually wrong. Doh!
Anyway, comparing Strider to Zero so prematurely isn’t productive even if he were polite about it, which he isn’t, so let’s talk about something more concrete huh?
LOL you really didn’t understand anything i said and for some reason you think this whole “spidey-phoenix” thing was a good example for your retort. It wasn’t, it was a horrible and incoherent example. Strider and Zero are similar characters, while Spidey and Phoenix does not. My case was that Zero takes less damage and dishes out more than Strider, therefore he is a better rushdown character due to the simplicity and less risk. That is common sense. You even had other posters trying to explain to you what i was talking about, so you are the idiot apparently.
Lets start from the beginning: the negative you gave to Strider/Dante/Vergil or Strider/Vergil (meter building, health, ignorance of assist chemistry)… while in reality, ClockwOrk, Floe, Killer Kai, and Seth (if you read his twitter) favor Strider(vajira)/Vergil(judgement cut) in that order. So really, doesn’t this show that your theory of Strider working like he did in MVC2 (saving meter for him to be DHC’d with orbs) is valid?
Next you popped up all this invalid shit about Thor and Spiderman giving more damage than Phoenix (which even the kids in gfaqs would tell you is wrong) to counter my statement that Zero is a better rushdown character due to his damage out put, stamina, and lower risk in comparison than Strider’s. You want to hear a better example of my Zero/Strider statement? Look at Wolverine and X-23. Both of them are fast, and X-23 is a tiny edge faster than Wolvie but wolverine is class S, you narrow out their differences. Start reading the comments of the other posters who responded before i did too before you start pointing out who is an idiot. Because quite sadly, every poster has your arguments have generally been shown to be wrong by even the pros and Seth (in concerns with the Strider/Vergil argument).
I’ve checked Seth’s twitter, he tweets that his favorite Strider team is Strider/Vergil/Strange. Strider/Vergil is getting favors from guys who have experienced them personally as it seems, there could be something here.
I additionally have to say that i understand StarvinMarvin’s post in concerns with Zero. It was just like the Dante/Zero debate during the Vanilla days. Dante has every option but lacks damage, Zero dishes out better damage, has little error potential, he has good options too, but the down side is he bleeds harder than Dante. The risk factor is somewhat even.
Strider does not share this though. Strider has all the options, from unblockables, projectiles, and mobility but he lacks damage, simplicity (he has always been an error common character), and vitality. Making him a risky character in comparison to Zero (more-so now with that new Charge buster buff). However, I’m sure capcom isn’t fully finished anyway, and hopefully strider gets a small health increase.
Hmmm…I guess Strange’s assist really hold up for the other 2 or maybe his ability to durp around in XF3 with faster 50/50’s is a big threat too.
Dante and Zero work pretty well together any way and are about pretty similar in overall strength and tools. I don’t really feel one is better than the other they’re just good for different reasons. Both of them can kill most of the cast in one combo with 2 meters so they don’t really have any damage differences there. They both have invincible pokes and they both have ways of making things they whiff as far as normals safe and convert into more shit. The health doesn’t really matter because everybody dies in one combo in Vanilla. You’re really not playing at high enough of a level of play if 100k in health difference matters to you. Most of the characters that have enough health where it actually matters (like the 1.2) range are around the lower end of the tiers on point any way. Tools >>>> health.
With Strider and Zero comparison…the game isn’t even out yet so it’s hard to really say if Zero’s damage output is going to be that much better than Strider’s. I mean Zero could TOD everybody in the game obviously in Vanilla but we’ll have to see if that still holds true in Ultimate depending on what they nerfed on him combo wise. Sure…right now everyone’s saying that Strider doesn’t do damage but everyone said that about Zero when Vanilla came out and then he ended up being one of the best DHC glitch enders and then people found out he had loops that could TOD the entire cast by himself plus one assist. Maybe he won’t end up being able to TOD the entire cast but things could definitely change depending on what people find with him plus assists when the game actually releases.
As far as simplicity is concerned…he doesn’t really seem that much more complicated than Zero and Zero definitely was one of the more technical characters in the game even if he probably has one of the most braindead poking games (normals always win all the time + can be covered by a projectile during whiffs). The health isn’t really that big of a deal either since supposedly Strider only has 50k less health than Zero. Strider looks like he’ll have all the bullshit that made Dante and Zero clear S tiers. Especially with that full screen sword special that causes wall bounce or whatever the fuck.
Dante and Zero in general are both getting affected by the damage/meter gain nerf thrown into the game as a whole amongst the older charactes. Which means even if Strider doesn’t TOD people all over the place like they did in Vanilla he should still be rather comparable in damage. Even then just like those two also he’ll also be capable of some of the nastiest resets in the game allowing him to kill people without spending meter and saving it to level 3 TOD the next character.
You can see it in the videos that came, including Max’s videos: Strider is more of a mix up character now (the new age of characters).
Excellent post. I catch your entire drift here and it makes everything positive. I have a feeling that some his charge buster cancels will get taken off (the one where he can cancel his lightning dash after a shot), and he may have a lower scale of damage now.
Although, i still want a plus 50 increase for Strider and this opinion is due to viewing Strange, who has 859 health. That guy does great damage, and has all sorts of tools and traps, and his 850 health just seems fair to balance his versatility, damage, and complex learning curve. Regardless, your points make sense anyway. It does seem like the higher the vitality, the lower the tier status.
edit: I’m kinda hyped for trying this Strider/Vergil thing but the popularity it’s getting is turning me off. Damn i can’t wait.
This pretty much confirms that Zero will be more of a mix up character in Ultimate also. Seems like Capcom pretty much tookaway everything he had that was capable of TODing people.
I’d like to see more of Strider before I really say for sure but if Zero is pretty much relegated to an invincible walking hit box reliant on mix ups…then yeah Strider is most likely gonna be in a similar boat.
Nah, to me Strider’s damage will likely (but not certainly) be significantly less than Dante or Zero’s; Maximilian mentioned in his video than Legion is a worky lvl 1 and it’s difficult to combo into it if you make your combos too long. So I suspect we will be seeing a lot of 400 000 - 550 000 meterless combos from Strider players until they save their meter for Ragnarok.
I wonder which Level 3 you’ll see more at high level; Ragnarok or Ouroburos. Rag for that sweet unscaled damage to augment Strider’s damage? Or 'buros to make his reset/mixup options even more deadly?