It has to do with it, just as much as Ryu’s sweep. My point is : once Claw is KD, there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t jump at you to start their block/tech pressure, the duration of which depending on their abilities.
The only thing that would prevent that would be an invincible reversal, or at least one immune to physical attacks (we could think of EX-RCF this way). =)
Yeah, that’s the point : at high level Claw players do need godlike defense, whereas others players just DP FADC.
And this goes even with top level shotos, until Infiltration exposed them. =)
Abel MU is probably even. But to me they become dangerous as soon as they’ve got meter, it changes completely the level of their defense. Just as Rufus in fact, I’m completely unafraid of meterless ones. =)
Yep.
I saw a match of yours against a very shy Gief who apparently had not mastered footies, normals, focuses and MU. But I’ll give you that this must not be your typical opponent. My Claw has lesser footsies than yours, and has a heavier vortex/KD-based style of play. But still, I must agress reasonably to get that first KD. =)
The picture you’re referring to is where the hitbox was shifted after the update to AE or AE 2012. Cant remember which. And that hitbox is still surrounded by a hurt box meaning that if opponent jumps in with an attack, chances are it’s going to trade at best. That’s not the close or far version. sHK doesnt have different close or far versions. And yeah… that loses to close jump ins too.
I’ve already argued this point. giving him a reversal isnt going to net you any real gains unless they cover more than just startup frames… which you’re not asking for. You specifically want a reversal… something that’s only useful against frame traps that you can just block anyway.
I’d rather have armor on RCF than on ST. Going in there asking for armor on both RCF and ST… I don’t see that happening, and I see it likely causing the idea of armor on RCF to get overlooked or straight up denied.
Yes I meant air to air. and Yes he doesn’t have any good grounded AA’s… that’s the whole point. why should the opponent play footsies? just bait a cMP and jump over. His entire ground game is negated by the opponent jumping. So exactly what use is it? What good does it do? The opponent can just hold up forward and do an air normal and unless you read the jump in there’s nothing you can do about it. So again why should the opponent play footsies at all? This is the problem that cHP fixes. It’s still situational but far less than the current sHK and at the same time actually gives cHP a use, while not having to make a commitment to jump. At least make the opponent have to work for their jump in. I don’t get why you’re okay with this situation, yet you want a buff that hardly helps anything at all.
#1 you dont have to guess between normal and throw if you stand tech. Something that’s a LOT safer than an EX ST with i frames and requires meter. Vega has the 2nd largest normal throw range IIRC, so if you get hit during stand tech, you probably need to stop trying to tech so much.
#2 There’s not a lot of times where Joz would have had enough time to charge for ST. And on those few times i frames on startup would have only helped him half the time as most of the time when Daigo goes in he either blockstrings or delays his attack baiting a reversal, which is standard Vega matchup play anyway. Bait normal and jump, bully into the corner, finish off with mixups. If people cant mix you up on the ground then they’ll take to the air. i frames on ST, unless they go all the way into active frames, are not going to keep you out of the corner. cHP will. How? because no charge is needed you can choose to react to a jump with dashing/sliding forward under the opponent or staying put and AAing. You have 30ish frames (+ or - a few depending on character) to react to the jump. A reversal only gives you at most 3 frames to react to the opponent, and chances are… it’s not a reaction. It’s a guess. It’s generally not a good idea (or useful) to have your game rely on guesses.
His stun is fine. Let the opponent be rewarded for getting in on Vega and just make it harder to get in on him.
But then maybe I’m overestimating my opponents, seeing as I don’t usually find myself dealing with people who do less than meaty shenanigans or crossups, in where an anti-air on wakeup, unless you make Scarlet Terror have invul frames (and we were talking about using normals as AA, so this isn’t in the question) then a normal is still going to do diddly squat even with anti-airs.
Do Ryu players wake up with cr.HP?
Nope.
I wouldn’t put DP FADC shenanigans past high level players, I saw people like Ricky Ortiz do it enough with Rufus in the midst of people’s block strings shrug
Abel MU is probably even. But to me they become dangerous as soon as they’ve got meter, it changes completely the level of their defense. Just as Rufus in fact, I’m completely unafraid of meterless ones. =)
Yep.
And if you read the description and the comment box, you would see that that video is to prove a point.
The Gief in question was someone who added me because they “wanted to learn the Vega matchup” better.
And then got into a hissy fit with me, ragemail and all, because when I played them, I wouldn’t push aggression because I dropped one link and I would get SPD’d as he was churning butter for it in my links.
I explained this and he claimed that I wouldn’t win if I went all out aggro on him.
So, I did.
And that was what happened.
Also, please don’t judge my online play as my overall skill. I play like a half-assed twat online because I don’t want to get into online lag tactics that could transfer over to offline.
Course, I don’t actually play this game offline, if ever anymore. I played it the other day for the first time since New years Eve if that tells you anything, and it was literally for one set of 6 games.
I actually think that Vega doesn’t need any buffs, he is fine.
You can air to air with air throw, njHK, jbMP and all sort of stuff. All you need is reaction… which is already required if want to have some high level play.
You can also block frame traps and tech throws. Sure, it requires good defense to do that. But hey! Someone using Vega needs to have a good defense.
… yeah… I never thought that I would go full sarcasm mode here. But the discussion here is more about “I have a better view of what Vega needs than you” than “lets find out how to balance our character”. Also, it seems that a lot of people here think of this game like it was an exact science. Forgetting that mind games represent a huge portion of this game.
I’ve stated my reasons for what I wanted and backed it up with facts and a logical argument. Even going back into the last 2 updates, I have not seen a legitimate reason (including my own former reasons for it when I supported it) why Vega should have i frames on ST. Argument is the best way to weed out bad or inferior ideas, so if there’s reasons ST should have i frames, I’m all for hearing it. But from my perspective, putting i frames only on start up or active frames and not both is not really going to resolve anything. You’re going to end up in exactly the same hated situations just as often as you do now. To be honest the argument could be made that it’ll actually put you in a worse position since instead of blocking you’ll be trying to reversal.
These are the things i would suggest. Im one of those guys who thinks vega is mostly ok the way he is now.
Normals:
-c.hp, Better hitbox to AA far jumps.
-c.mp, +10 damage, i feel this damage nerf going to AE was not justified.
-s.hk, extend hitbox of second hit downward, because i feel a few too many focus animations can duck the second hit, making me scared to use it for this purpose of focus breaking.
Unique Attacks:
-PPP flip, Faster and less recovery. I think its not unreasonable to have this move improved alot to be able to use it to get away at times, we have to time it right (cant reversal it) and it moves us back considerably, so we give up space, we can not use it in the corner since it only goes backward (unlike akuma teleport). Currently this move is a waste of space, most of the cast will just walk with you and punish it on reaction or use a horizontal moving special move or Ultra at the without much timing issues.
Cosmic heel, extend hitbox downward to actually hit all crouchers ( for example: cammy, chun, rose, etc) at its effective (less than -3) range and make it effective against more move low moves like it should
OR make it 1 frame safer on block so we cant get -3 , but -2 at worst.
Special moves:
-Rolling crystal flash: perfect blockstring at all times from first to last hit of this move for all versions
-Sky High Claw: Remove negative edge for this move, when we cancel to ex-fba after missing a link (pressing the button to early) this move tends to come out by negative edge and ruin that missed link even more than our missed damage, because we end up getting punished after fying over their head.
Flying Barcalona Attack: extend hitbox downward of the knee for the EX-FBA so our combo’s to EX-FBA are more universal, now we whiff it against crouching characters from ranges i feel it should not. (shoto’s, rose, etc)
Ultra’s:
U2 back to 7 frames, this ultra was never overpowered in SSF4
What are your options currently during frame traps? What are the risks and rewards for said options? What exactly does EX ST having i-frames add to this?
Emerson, couple of quick questions:
Why have +10 damage over having the hitbox extended to the tip of the claw?
Why faster instead of going further? I always felt it was intended to be a spacing move more so than an evasion move.
Good stuff tho.
BTW I also am including this fix into my notes tomorrow
When I do defend, I try do make my defense match the possibilities :
— If an opponent is going into gapless blockstrings/throws mix-up, I’ll crouch tech o
— If he goes into frame traps/overhead, I’ll stand block
— If he goes into frame-trap/throw mix-up, I’ll just block or backdash
So that means, that if I’m cornered, or if my opponent is OSing backdash, I’m toasted against frame-trap/throw mix-up. It turns out into a wild guessing game, and the longer the string, the more likely I am to fail at guessing everything.
So that’s were I-frames on ST would serve : preventing being cornered meaning the end of the round for the claw player. As simple as that, as long as Claw hasn’t space, he’s as good as dead. That’s where a reversal would have it’s full benefit : frame-trap/throw mixups.
As I said, there are some weaknesses we have to accept to compensate the range of his ground game. That being, AA weaknesses. With still, and talent, one can overcome this weakness. But I don’t see why I’ll have to accept an additional impairment of his grounded defense. I would like to have a way out when cornered. There is no reason why our character should be helpless in this circumstance, specially given the fact you can get yourself cornered with only one combo. I’m asking for the possibility to get out, to say no to retardedly repeated assaults. Nothing more, nothing less. =)
About flips, it would help if they were at least reversable. So that you don’t end not understanding why your move didn’t came out… =)
how is the guessing game removed with i frames on a reversal EX ST? With that you’d have to guess on whether or not the opponent pressed a button. And you don’t even get the option of spending 3 bars to make it a safe guess. You still have the risk of being cornered on an incorrect guess. On top of that you also have to have charge. So you wouldnt even be able to do anything on the first frame trap/throw mix up. And if they jump during the frame trap mixup, depending on how much blockstun you are in, there’s a good chance you wont be able to react with EX ST in time, so now you lose your charge or get hit. You’re still in the same situation. BTW go into training mode and try to “escape the corner” after landing EX ST. Wall dive will get you hit by most of the cast, corpse hop puts you at point blank with you having to block or take a huge risk. Jumping gets you hit by their wake up or you land in front still cornered. The only way you get outta the corner scott free… is if they don’t tech the wake up.
FYI
stand tech will beat (and corner) the opponent if they attempt to frame trap within range of your throw if the gap is more than 2 frames. The spiffy thing is that if you get hit trying to stand tech it’s not a counter hit.
So im going to go on a tangent about ST and invul frames really quick.
Alot of vega’s seem to want this to relieve presure from them at wake up and when characters are up close to you.
A long time ago i was also one of these vega’s , i have a broader understanding of the game now though, and invul frames on any ST version would break vega against alot of characters.
Most people see this buff as a simple matter for something they want, namely being pressured up close and on wake up.
In their wishes to relieve this issue, they forget however this invul ST will also excist in all other situations.
Let me sketch a situation for you.
You are Dudley and your facing vega and that vega has built up a 40% lifelead and has 4 EX bars, he sits down.
What do you do?
If the vega is smart enough, you can only die.
He has massive ranged pokes that he can combo to 2xx+ damage with EX-FBA, and all those pokes will recover in time if dudley happened to jump them for invul ST to beat him clean.
only thing he can do is whiff punish c.mp or focus forward dash it (or release if hes in range), but even closed in he has to respect a 4 frame invulnerable move at all times now… do you know what this will do for the match up??? its already bad for dudley, might very well become 8-2 or something.
More characters will be stumped on how to deal with vega just sitting there, think of poor t-hawk~~!
Never mind a good vega who moves around and uses the EX-ST smartly.
My options? Pretty much the universal ones: block, crouch tech, late tech, backdash, throw, focus backdash. The reward for picking the right one is that you get to live. Risk is getting blown up. This still remain even with i-frames on ST, however, it adds another option. One that actually covers multiple angles of attack. I seriously don’t get why you try to argue this point. This is what i-frames would be. Another option. Argue the significance of said option all you’d like, but you can’t argue that it isn’t another option.
Then that’s another mix-up, not the ones we were telling about. And if you could lead the opponent to dout to the point of interrupting his attacks, then it means lesser pressure for you, so it’s good. =)
You mean, if you tech in the corner and eat a 419+ damage combo against Ryu, it’s still not as bad as eating 440 ? =D
The main problem here is that this would work only against close range mid height frame-traps, such as Claw’s cLP. The main issues, are auto-lose against low attacks, and increased risk as range increases. You won’t catch me pressing a button against a ryu cornering me. X_X
I see your point, though this MU isn’t as bad for Dudley than most say. I’ve got an excellent Dudley among my friends, and smart ones are not to be underestimated.
I think you might be right on this, and this might be the reasons of capcom’s SFIV claw character design. Though there might be a compromise between making a character a big rushdown victim, and overpowering it. The point is others characters have attacks as good or even better than Claw’s, and have this reversal ability. Some have it all times, some can FADC it to safety, some must spend a bar… Well, this is to be thought throughly.
Though making flips usable (at least reversable, WTH are those moves which refuse to trigger randomly ??) could be another exit for it. Some even suggested to make PPP flip FADC-able, which would allow escape and at the same time prevent Vega from spamming it.
This is only true if there are i frames on start up and on active frames.
If it’s only on start up his elbow will beat it clean (look at hitbox vs hurtbox on the first or even 2nd active frame. It gets a bit better with EX but it’s still not looking good)
He could also CC a counter poke for a KD but yeah, unless he can get a safe jump off CC it’d be pretty unfair.
I’m not saying it doesn’t add another option, but why pick a buff like this over cHP or sHK being buffed when the benefits for invincibility on ST are worse than having a better ability to keep the opponent outta ST range to begin with?
Absolutely, it’s not that bad. It’s just a bit harder than most chars.
I’m not mad against v2012’s Claw, I had a lot of fun using it. But sometimes, I do wonder why some characters would solve so easily situations that seem so hard to handle even for players as Jozhear. Why can they abuse, and why can’t we ?
That controversial reversal matter put aside, just fixing cLK and making flips reversable would be Ok for me. And a 19 frames dash would be nice too, to make FADC reliable. =)
You do realize that in order to throw the pressure needs to stop right? It’s the same shit.
so you’ve never grabbed someone out of their sweep? or worse had someone grab you out of your own sweep or cMK? If there’s more than a 2 frame gap… and they are within throw range (which beats the throw ranges of all except 1 character IIRC), if you stand tech you get a back throw and they are now in the corner. Obviously, Ryu’s max cMK/sweep range is out of your own throw range so there’s no reason to attempt a tech. And Ryu can not spam DP FADC. No meter reduces the chance he’s going to use DP.
if you crouch tech, you eat a counter hit. If you stand tech you don’t. Crouch techs are good for trying to catch people walking in to throw you. Stand tech otherwise if you ask me.
I don’t like the flips being FADC-able or having EX Flips. I don’t really see much use in buffing the flips. I really cant think of any fix that wouldnt be temporary. It’s kinda like SHC currently. They really just don’t fit well in this slow pace of a game. I could be wrong tho… as RCF was included into that group until you brought up the armor idea. The more I think about armor on it, the more I like it.
Can’t jump in, can’t karathrow, can’t poke.