He can grab people out of the dumbest stuff. I’ve been grabbed during Climber Side-B by Olimar.
As for the Climbers themselves, I think they’ll go up as people start getting more polished at Brawl- as Melee showed us, techniques that are ‘unfeasable due to execution standards’ will eventually become a dangerous norm (Fox Waveshine, anyone?) as people get better with it. The bigger issue is how the Climbers get those grabs. Their approach is only decent, and when dealing with spam has the problem that even if Popo evades, Nana still could (and often does) take it in the face, wrecking any kind of chain-grab setup until the dumb ho gets caught back up. Some cases it isn’t much of a problem, but one Din’s Fire, Purple Pikmin/Olimar Smash, or R.O.B Eyebeam and suddenly you’re stuck flying solo for 4-5 seconds. Against characters who can’t do that to them, yes, I think the Climbers are scary, scary monsters. I’ve already traumatized a few SRKers with 'em. But if someone can really screw with their approach… then what? Ice Shoot, one of the weakest, easiest deflected, hitstun-less projectiles in the game?
Now, Game and Watch- there’s a character who’s looking good, ESPECIALLY against many of the seemingly-top. If there’s anyone I’m shocked that isn’t getting more hype, it’s the shield-destroying, throw-tech-chasing, priority-whoring, ‘omg, that kills THAT LOW’ Mr. Game and Watch
Lucas is definatly high-top tier material. He has 2 very good projectiles (PK Fire & thunder) and 1 situational projectile (PK Freeze). He can also heal himself by certain projectiles (PSI magnet). His F and D smash come out quick and are quite powerful, and his Fsmash can deflect projectiles. His aerials, whle not as good as Ness’s, are good , quick, and kill at high %. And if he spikes someone with his Bair, they aren’t coming back. One top of al that, his Dtilt can make people trip, giving lucas a free dsmash.
Not to mention that lucas has a tether recovery, and combined with zap jumping lucas has one of the best recoveries in the game. I can’t imagine lucas being an lower the high tier.
Doing THAT is impossible, but you can actually get a fair amount of vertical height out of the Squall Hammer just by mashing B- I regularly can get back from about 3-4 Climber heights below the edge with it.
It’s definitely better as an attack, and it’s quite a bit better as a recovery, too- both Belay and Squall Hammer have been buffed to all get-out. Squall Hammer is harder to stop- clashes with a lot of attacks now and keeps going- goes farther AND higher AND moves faster. And it can Sweet Spot at the end, although it’s a pain in the ass to do. Considering Melee’s Squall Hammer was basically edge guard bait that meant that the Climbers were probably dead once they left the platform, I consider the Brawl version a definite improvement.
Yeah, GnW is looking pretty sexy. All his aerials are very good, great smashes too (ever see someone spam the down smash?) and decent tilts. He has good recovery too. I’d say high-top tier for him.
I can see Marth’s reach countering him though. It’ll be tough to approach a good Marth player.
Metaknight has INSANE pressure and offensive. His tilt/downsmash game is super hard to deal with because you can’t shield grab or out prioritize it, and his moves are just so fast. He also has unbelievable recovery. His killing power isn’t great, but it’s good. He’s light, but with good DI and his glide you can survive a long time. He has a tough time with Snake, and other heavies with good recovery because he can’t kill them.
Snake might be the best. His tilts and jab combos are just too good. His pressure from projectiles and mines is scary, and his recovery is just cheap. He’s heavy too…What were they thinking?
GnW has good aerial game, great smashes, and decent tilts with good recovery. No downside, except not great reach.
Marth is still Marth. Great reach, great priority, forward smash is one of the best moves in the game. His recovery is still “meh” but everyone has better recovery in Brawl, so it’s cool. His air game is still one of the best.
DeDeDe’s chain throws and infinites are good for racking up damage. He has amazing recovery, and he’s heavy. His smashes are too slow, but he has very good aerials and tilts, and kills fast.
Now that I think about it, we should take the approach that many other fighting games have used to decide tiers, and use a match-up chart. We rank each match-up on a scale of 0-10. A 0-3 match-up is considered bad, a 4-6 match-up is considered fair, and a 7-10 match-up is considered good. We then rank the characters based on their total match-up points. Here’s an examples:
I agree with the GnW being high tier sentiment. 2 words for that.
Sea. Fucking. Turtle.
I realize that’s 3 words but he only number that matters in counting with game and watch is a 9.
So how do you guys feel about falco? Better chain throw than dedede, pretty good killing moves and aerials, a good spike, probably one of the best projectiles in the game. Dash attack cancel into up smash. He seems like he might be high tier to me.
Why not? Large grab range coupled with some of the best grabs in the game. Heavy weight, plus good recovery, equals very hard to KO. Lots of KO options, useful projectile, and good spacing. I definitely think he should at least be upper tier.
EDIT:
Yeah, I think G&W is much better than his Melee counterpart. And Falco is definitely up there as well, but what chaingrab do you speak of?
Falco’s chain grab is a joke compared to DDD’s. It’s escapable at like, 30% whereas DDD’s is inescapable unless you fall of the edge, and it’s infinite into a wall, like on Corneria or Rainbow Ride. He can also do it without moving for at least 5 throws (with very strict timing) on DK, Luigi, Mario, Bowser and (one more character I can’t remember right now), and then he can follow that up with the dash grab chain.
I don’t think Falco is very good. His smashes, aerials and tilts are nothing special, he has no great combos, and they nerfed the laser, the shine and the drill…
If anyone’s interested, All is Brawl just posted their initial tier list. I know it’s not final or whatever, but it’s interesting:
D3’s chaingrab is escapable at high percents, but the opponent must have very good timing with their techs. And D3 can grab way more than 5 times on those characters, just watch this vid:
[media=youtube]23UyrHXK36A[/media]
EDIT:
As for the tier list I want to know why Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, and Wolf are so low. And why Peach, Samus, Link, Pikachu, and Kirby are so high. Also why are there only four rankings? There should be five.
Falco has the best camping game out of everyone. He has great combos. He is one of the few cahracters that can actually combo, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
All his aerials are good. He has a good approach. Good tilts and a solid jab combo. Plus he can cancel his dash attack into an u-smash and yeah he can cg.
I’m thinking top tier.
Only bad thing baout him is that he kills at higher percents, but other then that he is good as hell.
From what I could tell, Kirby and Pikachu both have multiple hit normals .ie Kirby’s down spin kick and pikachu’s forward electric spin. That alone makes them both fierce since it opens up the ability to keep doing it or smash attack. They both also have a very good 3rd jump where kirby can’t really be killed unless ko’d since his jumps are too good. (it’s always been that way for him, though) I thought Peach was mid or so but then again I never really played her too much and went back to Pikachu and Kirby. I think toon link is high mid at least, to me his hits are easier to flow into than big link and his d-taunt is too funny.
Go play against the level 9 computer for a while, guys. Now tell me what you see it do. That’s right, it gets out of all your “combos”, showing that in this game hit stun is too low. But wait. There’s another effect. Basically any attack you do can be Blocked > Grabbed. Shielding is REALLY good in brawl. Because punishment with grabs is so rampant, those with good ones have a big advantage. But throw beats Parry… I mean shield. “Let me guess”, You say. “Good grabs are even better.” So I predict those with chain grabs/infinites (DeDeDe, ICs, Falco) will be top. HOWEVER, there are some notable exceptions to this rule. Characters with projectiles can both attack safely, and keep others from getting into grab range. “But hey!” you say, “Ice Climbers , Falco and DeDeDe have good projectiles!” And you’re right abut that. Goodbye.
“But you forgot something!” You cry out as I prepare to leave. “Meta Knight has such short recovery on some of his attacks that he can actually avoid getting grabbed!” So he’s also good. I <3 Meta Knight.
Honorable mention goes to Bowser with his 18% Side B grab.
Also, that down shield evade is beastly. At first I thought toon link was pretty bad because I couldn’t really grab without leaving myself wide open in case of a miss but, with that evade option it’s really easy to dodge a smash and then have plenty of time to grab. I’ll also use the parry shield but evading is real good to use at a higher level. You can’t really spam it (you can try) but after a while someone will time your evasion and wait till the end to get a clean hit which just adds more depth to this game.
Everyone can cancel their dashes into u-smash. Also, his aerials are really slow…Laser isn’t so great anymore, but it’s still good, I’ll give you that.
I can’t right now, I’m at school and youtube is blocked >.<
My friend is the one who found the non-moving chain grab. It stales after 5 throws unless you jab twice between every throw, and it becomes escapable if you do that.
Jigs dies really low (she’s the lightest character), ICs lost all their crazy Melee shenanigans but they might still be good, I haven’t played them enough to say. Wolf has garbage recovery. Samus and Link should be lower, but Pika is a huge pimp.
