His attack speed benefits from his movement speed. It’s extremely difficult for just about all the characters to retaliate against a Fox offensive.
Is there a Japanese tier list folks? 
I don’t get?
is this supposed to be fun or something? if so you did a good job of hiding it…:wonder:
Fox should at least be higher than Luigi >.>
The only thing that makes people consider him being top tier is his Up B, that’s it. His recovery has been improved but he’s still not that good. Fox on the other hand can rush down or play keep away because of his movement speed. He has the best reflector out of the “space animals” imo.
I agree. His initial dash can lead into so much since it’s quick and has a relatively short animation. You can emulate the waveshine somewhat by using a jump-cancel shine out of a dash and repeating. His foxtrot is incredibly good for movement and mindgames.
The only thing I don’t like about Fox is his weight, fall speed and his somewhat mediocre air mobility.
I actually use his Reflector to kind of balance out his fall speed. Doing it repeatedly after being knock off the stage keeps the opponent guessing as to when you’ll drop, or attempt to come back on stage, and can keep you out of harms way from a follow up attack as you fall, giving you some control over the game again. And it totally screws up those follow up attacks from the people who like to pursue you off the sides of the stages, aswell.
His side B is awesome too, since it can be stopped at any point by pressing B again. Great for more of those mind games, if you will. And let’s not forget his dair. Only characters with Super Armor in their attacks can get past it, and it’s incredibly useful for getting early knock outs.
And again, I don’t know how Corner-Trap came to the conclusion Luigi was dominating most of the other mentioned characters, or at least more so than Fox. It’s as if a few key characters were listed, and the rest you just jotted down without any real reason to why you did. Even the listed reasons are kind of silly.
The main thing about Luigi that I see is his rather useful pool of KO moves. All his smashes can KO at reasonable percentages. His d-air is powerful and is even better when used as a spike. His upB is much easier to land now and it KOs pretty early.
Other things: his tornado makes a decent approach and his recovery is awesome. His air game is really good and his ground game is almost as good.
The big problems seem to be lack of range and priority and his subpar projectile. He’s also a relatively big target, a slow mover and pretty easy to edgeguard given his rather loopy methods of recovery (his tornado can’t sweetspot the edge from what I’ve seen).
I actually like Luigi a lot but I think Fox has the range advantage, a better projectile, more priority and is fairly hard to edgeguard (two recoveries and the reflector). He still pretty strong given his speed, which is third behind Sonic and Falcon, and his shine makes him a difficult fight for characters who rely a lot on projectile spam. He can still shine spike (though it’s harder) and can jump cancel the shine. And I’ve already mentioned his amazingly useful dash that can lead into almost any ground attack, JC shines, foxtrots and the obvious u-smash (which is Fox’s best KO move by far). I believe he has more potential than Luigi and should be higher.
But that’s just me…
Luigi has so much more going for him than just UpB. Fox’s reflector is only on par with the other spacies, it’s not much better. Falco’s reflector is a crucial part of his camping game. Wolf’s reflector has large range and makes him invincible, and allows for easy follow ups.
I wouldn’t have much problem with putting Fox over Luigi. I stated a few pages back that just because is character is one or two spots above another doesn’t mean that he’s necessarily better, because they can still be evenly ranked. But honestly though, I’m not sure why you still think Fox is so good. Luigi has the better ground game, better air game, better KO moves, better recovery, better overall attack speed, and better approach. Fox isn’t bad by any means, it’s just that a lot of characters can simply do things better than him.
And Luigi’s definitely not one of them.
Did you not read my last post? Luigi does a lot of things better than him. To make it easier let me list them again.
-Ground game
-Aerial game
-KO moves
-Recovery
-Attack speed
-Approach
-Camping
What does Fox hold over Luigi?
Lol.
The only thing Luigi has over Fox on that list is KO attacks. He does** none** of the other things better. And you really can’t be serious right now. Are you listening? At least 3 people including me, explained in detail the superiority of Fox versus Luigi. It’s as if you want Luigi to better.
As it’s plain to see, this is not a list based on the theory fighter input of the community here, but your personal, biased list. This is my last post itt, at the moment. This is getting really boring.
Fox has a better camping game, attack speed, and ground game. His KO options aren’t bad either.
I’ve been messing around with Mario lately, and I think he’s a little better than people give credit for.
Most of his game revolves around his aerials. He combos well using double SH Uairs and Utilt/Usmash and can rack up decent damage quickly at lower %. Bair is also nice as it’s quick and he can SH in with it and DI back out. He can also fit in a Nair or Uair after an immediate Bair out of SH. Dair is actually useful, if you hit from the side it sucks them in. It autocancels if done straight from SH, and the landing “lag” actually contains a hitbox. So you can do a Dair right before you land to get the higher knockback last hit on landing. Dair isn’t to useful to hit enemies below him, so it leaves him a bit vulnerable there, so your best bet is airdodge. Nair is useful to break out of combos or in SH double aerial approaches. Cape can also be used effectively as a disjointed hitbox attack, dealing damage and turning opponents around.
Fireballs aren’t great for spam, but they serve well to help his approach. Can also help control the edge as he returns.
His ground game isn’t that great. Jab combo is useful but nothing special, his throws aren’t that great anymore. Dthrow is probably the best, it doesn’t allow free combo though. Dsmash is a nice quick clear out attack, Fsmash I use as more of a poke attack than a KO move. It has extra range if you use it facing away which is useful, especially combined with retreating Bairs. All his tilts have pretty short range, but can be useful. Utilt is great anti air, fast and good priority, useful for juggling. Ftilt is a nice poke, a little short ranged though. Dtilt also has short range, but it’s quick and pops up slightly for combos, great after dropping a Nair on their shield.
I don’t find Mario’s biggest problem to be priority. He lacks range in a lot of attacks, but his speed can often make up for that. He also has cape, which spaced properly can help deal with longer ranged higher priority attacks. His biggest problem IMO, is he lacks easy, reliable KOs. Usmash kills somewhere around 150%s without decay, Fsmash later. I find that Mario gets most of his kills edgeguarding. As such, most of his better matchups are against people with poor/exploitable recoveries.
Edgegame is where Mario really shines.
Bair if spammed has low knockback and can be used to drag down similar to Melee Doc’s Bair. This can be a pain for a lot of characters, but especially ones with short recoveries like Olimar, Ivysaur, Bowser, Falco, Ganon, etc.
Fair is a useful spike. You can jump fairly far off the stage now to do it, and with the angle of approach for Fair spike, it forces the opponent into a few options. One is to airdodge, in which case you can usually get back to the edge first. Or they attack you, which usually results in you being knocked back towards the edge. It’s not that hard of a spike, but usually enough to guarantee a kill.
Cape turns the enemy around. It also not only turns them around, but now gives them a slight pushback away and up. Not much, but it’s made the difference for me in a few matches. On UpB’s where you have to choose a direction (Spacies, Zelda, anyone else with teleport) it makes you fire the opposite way that you inititally held. So if Falco/Zelda does UpB, tap left and gets caped, they go right. Tether characters can be turned around early before they get their tether out, effectively making their tehter useless, since AFAIK most tethers (excluding ZSS, dunno about Ivy) can’t use tether facing away from the edge. Cape also works on horizontal recoveries like DK and Bowser since the cape now pushes them away and sends them in the other direction.
FLUDD is situational, yes, but it has it’s uses. At full charge it pushes back pretty far. If timed correctly it can be used to make forward nonexistent. Extremely useful vs. spacies, as it pushes them back during their chargeup on UpB, and also cuts the distance on their SideB more than half. It can be aimed up or down, so Mario can stay on the stage while pushing an opponent below the stage even farther back. He can also use it off the stage. Mario can SH a full charge FLUDD off the edge and make it back. This is great for two uses. One, you can jump off and push characters out too far to recover. Or, on stages with a lip, you can jump off facing the stage and push characters under the stage. This is useful against a lot of people, especially people who have a set path or linear recovery like Snake, Mario, Luigi, Marth, Ike, Ganon, Falcon, etc. It also works well on chargeable recoveries like Spacies and Diddy.
Combined together, these options make it pretty tough for an opponent to get back to the edge. With the floatier mechanics, Mario is uaually able to attempt two of these edgeguards offstage. However, the floatier mechanics also mean opponents are usually recovering at higher altitudes. Mario has trouble getting kills on characters with great recovery like ROB and Pit, which is where his worst matchups typically lie. If only Fsmash still killed decently…
Do what you like with the info, I just thought I’d drop a little Mario knowledge.
Pretty large tournament. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164253
X.E.S.T.I.C.L.E Partial Results
1 Cort (Snake)
2 M2K (DDD)
3 PC Chris (Snake/Rob/Falco/Meta Knight)
4 Dazwa (ZSS/Meta Knight)
5 Omega black Mage (G&W)
5 Velocity (G&W)
7 Darc (Marth/Ness)
7 hbk (Marth)
9 Siyko(Metaknight)
9 Chibo Sempai(Rob)
9 Gonzales (Ike)
9 Wes (Snake)
13 Phish-it
13 Vex Kasrani
13 Prince of Fire (Meta Knight)
13 Skler (Falco)
17 Roman
17 Mall Santa (Rob/DDD)
17 Spawn (Toon Link)
17 Icy Light (Olimar)
17 Hayato
17 House (G&W)
17 vigilante
17 th0rn (Falco)
Has anyone noticed besides me how a good percentage of Melee Falco players use Snake now?
Here were the results for the C3 tournament over the weekend (appox. 50 entrants):
1: Chillindude829 (D3, Snake, Fox)
2: Forte (Metaknight and Bowser)
3: Azen Zagenite (ROB)
4: LoZR (Wario)
5: Kirbstir (Metaknight)
5: NC-Echo (olimar)
7: Candy (wolf)
7: Mulligan (snake fox)
9: K-9 (wolf)
9: Meep (marth)
9: Gonzo (kirby, ROB)
9: g-reg (snake wario)
13: Thumbswayup (Diddy kong)
13: Karn (rob)
13: Tope (d3, falco)
13: NACKER (rob)
30: (or thereabouts; unknown 'cause it was pools) Ultra (ROB/Dedede)
Well I can’t exactly say I’m surprised that a Snake tourney won both tournaments…
Snake’s a funky fresh gangsta yo. He wins the tournaments cause he tells Peach and Zelda that he’ll put the zoom-zoom in the boom-boom if they get out of his way, but when he wins, he doesn’t do it. All that happens is this.
Oh shit.
HBK is in my crew!!!
GO HBK!!! WOOT!!!
Why are the results always
- Snake
- Metaknight
LoZR lives in my town though and got 3rd with Wario, that’s awesome. I need to play him sometime.
Oh speaking of Wario, I haven’t kept up with this thread but has he been discussed yet? The more I play him, the more I think he might be one of the better characters in the game. Great aerial movement, good aerials, nice damage, super armor on forward smash, pretty damn safe, great recovery, mix ups off his down throw, chain grabs on the fat characters, trump card with his wario fart good for vertical KOs or just getting damage, a nice attack throw. The only thing that would hold him back is a lack of a projectile, but because of his aerial movement and bike, he can get around that pretty easy. Bike eats through almost all projectiles so you can use it to get in close, and if you crash it near the edge, you can throw it off to edge guard someone. I did that last night and it bounced off someone’s head about 5 times, pushing them lower and lower and eventually killing them. I really should have recorded that match.
Sanke and MK are very popular and if alot of high level players like them then of course they will win alot, plus they are both very good.
Marth isn’t popular at all.
I’m sad.
*cries.