Character Ranking Discussion

No, I’m saying Falco’s pretty much the only person I play as that’s higher than mid-tier (other than Zamus)

And from what I’ve read, I’m fine with that tier list; it looks pretty solid. Maybe a few people will get moved as time passes on (much like with melee), but for now I agree with it completely.

And yeah, Ganon’s got the odds against him, but I enjoy playing as him nonetheless. Gotta have a perfect game when you use him though, and I’m nowhere near that level yet :lol:

Also, another advantage Zamus has is the suit pieces at the beginning of the match. Now against a good opponent, it’s not much, but every little bit helps. Against a lesser opponent though, you can easily use the three pieces to rack up 50%+ damage or even a KO.

Two things I’d like to clarify.

  1. Rankings aren’t always determined by how bad a character is, but by how good every other character is compared to that character.

  2. We shouldn’t be factoring in a characters combo ability in rankings considering that combos are pretty much non existent outside of CG’s and 2-3 strings. Instead we should focus on how good a characters “follow-ups” are.

ur joking about combo ability right? chain throws are combos, when u cant recover(dodge,block, or DI) from consecutive attacks. it is a combo.

S marth, DDD, MK, Pit, toon link

A wolf, falco, fox, pikachu, olimar, ROB, ness, lucas

and falco really doesnt have strong KO potential, upsmash doesnt kill before 125, dsmash before 150, bair and fsmash are his best KO options. but he racks dmg easily enough with chain throw and laserlock so im not complaining.

Isn’t tier list ultimately determined by statistics after years of tournament play? By looking at what characters usually are at the top after a tournament?

I guess we all can come up with a personal tier list right now.

yup.

but people love to guess and theorize. i theorize that these ‘tiers’ would be very different if they were playing on more than just ‘neutral’ stages. Ivy is a beast.

Samus is better than Donkey Kong.
I want to see Samus in the mid-tier.

Ivysaur has LAUGHABLE recovery. You REALLY have to get him out before his damage hits like 90-100% otherwise you may not be able to tether-recovery if you get sent flying. I think he’s the most balanced out of the three but his KO moves come out SLOW(Up Smash, Forward Smash) At least he’s got a shitload of AA options.

And you retards needa leave CT alone cause he’s just trying to compile a tentative tier-list and you morons aren’t helping by going “ZOMG WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU!?” without giving any kind of argument…

…also bottom tier is like this IMO really…

-Sonic
-Captain Falcon
-Mario
-Gannondorf

I’m thinking Snake is tops. VERY few characters can out-camp him or shut him down(Pit, Falco, Wolf jump to mind) and stupid priority he has on ALOT of shit works in his favor.

Although I can see Gannon being over Mario just cause of his power+mixups. Mario just blows to all hell.

really? the way i’ve always seen it is the tier list being the theoretical side of the game. the tournament is the experimental data.

seen this way, tournaments back tier lists, not make them, but are necessary to qualify them. As the theoretical side, the absolute tier list for the game would show who has the most advantages. The tournament results will follow this. But it only works this way if it’s right. Many theories can only be realized through interpretation of experimental data.

Samus better than Donkey Kong? You’re really going to have to explain yourself.

Too true. The good KO moves she had have been nerfed. Her aerials, while still good, don’t serve her as much. She can’t keep rush-down out very well to camp, and she can’t even camp as well she used to. Her projectiles are plain bad now, and her close game is worse, especially on the ground. She just feels slower and clunkier than before.

I really dont think Sonic is as low as people are saying. To win with Sonic you just have to bust your ass when compared to characters like Wolf who can spam out side and down smashes. Yeah. Some of his moves have poor priority and a small hit box, but I still think Sonic can be mid if not high, but not top tier.

Unfortunately, it’s not just about busting your ass for a kill. You need to bust your ass just to keep getting damage in, and once that’s done you have to work so much harder than most characters for a kill. That’s the thing that makes a character lower on the tier list: He needs more work to get similar results that higher characters do.

True. But that speed of his is what allows him to work so hard. I cant say I really know what I am talking about, or if I am talking out of fanaticism, but… I can see how people fall. Even I screw up and repeat a dumb move over and get punished for it.

If you read more clearly, you would have noticed that I said that combos are non existent except for CG’s and 2-3 hit strings. So instead of factoring in how good a characters combo abilities are, we should factor in how good their follow-ups are, since they aren’t guaranteed.

Tier lists are determined by whats currently known about the game.

Yes theory fighter is fun, and all legal stages are usually considered in a characters placement. And are you ever going to give an actual explanation for why you think Ivysaur is good?

I considered Samus mid tier, but everyone disagreed with me so I moved her to low tier.

Real problem with Ivysaur is that her weaknesses are just easily exploitable. Her recovery and lag is just terrible.

It’s hard to keep having to constantly change tier lists to fit the majorities opinions, when everyone has such drastically different views.

I wouldn’t mind switching the bottom tier to that order.

Tier lists are mostly made of theory fighter, but proven by tournament results. So you’re essential right.

I think they go even, and I can honestly see Samus having better match-ups than DK, but we would actually need some mains for those characters to determine that.

Yeah, she’s basically been nerfed in every possible area.

The thing is, is that you have to put in a lot of work with Sonic, but still not receive the same rewards as others. If you actually read the Sonic description on the front page, then that might clarify some things.

My thoughts exactly.

EDIT:

That just didn’t even make sense. The thing is, is that other characters are simply better than him. All of his attacks in general are just lackluster, and no matter how good his movement speed is, it won’t make up for a poor move set.

Hm. I suppose. Despite that I think I will keep with Sonic and Wolf. I dont want to be Johnny exclusive like I was in GG.

I just wamted to put my two cent worth in ok people.

Lucas is a beast and should not be slept on!!!

And people are not using samus right if they do not see her as better than mid tier!! Her z air(yes when she jumps and throws out her thingy) rapes all kinds of shit. You can get Two out in a normal jump. Most important of all no land lag!!! You can zair approach and dtilt, ftilt, grab, two hit, get a charge shot out, or best of all is zair-tap a-charged shot!!!

Now I do not main samus but I do play someone who is killer with her. She has four projectiles(five if you count her zair which you should!!) and for any person in the game without one she is a problem. She is floaty but the zair people the zair. It is annoying and makes he space very well. Just play around with her and you will see what I am talking about. If you put her zair into good use while comming back it is hard to keep her from the ledge. Really hard without a projectile!!!

Now I could be wrong but I really see her as a problem, not for my lucas but for the other cast members. Homming missles are stupid with the zair you just cant get in!!! Laying bombs and short hop back zair gives her time to charge a shot for free.

I think this game is more about spacing and such so I can not see how a player who knows what they are doing with her can just get snuffed out. If you do not believe me then give me your fc and I will have this player come over and show you how great she really is. Much better than zsamus IMO. Oh and BTW the player is neomagnus, he post on srk and is a beast with this girl!!! Try him if you must but just know that power suit samus is the shit!!!

Hehehe, time for the doom to comment.

Ivy, despite having bullet seed, is undeniably bottom tier imo. None of her moves make up for her poor recovery. Use her for bullet seed, then switch to charizard.

CT, you don’t have to update the list for this post, but…

Mario is possibly the worst character in the game. I’ve never seen such a senseless nerf in all my years of playing fighting games. He can’t ko for shit now, fludd sucks, his new dair is horrible, fireballs are crap, up b was buffed but still sucks honestly, reach sucks, cape seems to have more lag…fuck even his final smash is terrible. :rofl:

Fuck that, Sonic is better than mario. Sonic can at least move around. (I defended sonic at first, played him for like a week after that and gave up.)

Mario is fucking HORRIBLE. Undeniably belongs in the low-tier imo.

Oh yeah, link stuffs.

Link (regular)

Pros:
+disjointed hitboxes. Lots of them.

  • Because of his projectiles, shielded stance and space gaining throws he’s a great camping character and anti-camping. (crouching stops space animal lasers.)
  • great priority.
  • good kill moves. (dair, f-smash, up smash,down smash, and up b, bombs. in order from best to worse)
    +lagless and long reaching SHed Zair. Veryspammable
    +ground lock infinite. Seems to be situational, but could have potential. Not nearly as good as falco’s.
    +end of the boomerang arc causes push back. possible ledge harrassment.
  • good interruption moves. up+tilt, n+a, down tilt, n-air, foward tilt.
  • floaty, and overall recovery was buffed ever since melee. Tether still has it’s uses.

Cons
-must be played reactively in alot of matchups

  • can be out camped by several potential top characters (d3, pit and snake)
  • Kill moves come out slow. (it’s not difficult for your opponent be on the lookout for a SHed dair) Also, some of them are not very safe at all.
  • mediocre air game. F+air is good for edgegaurding, and dair and zair are really good moves. But that’s it. Up+air seems nerfed for some reason, and b+air is pretty bad.
    -slow
  • no real reliable way to rack up damage outside of projectiles…
    -…and therefore can be rushed.
    -Boomerang doesn’t hit on the way back. more problematic than it sounds.

Matchups are still in work though I do have a rough who he does well and fails agianst. But I just feel it needs more work.

Link isn’t exactly buffed or nerfed since melee. But I do feel that the design made in brawl are what make him a better character this time. The game seems to favor those with high priority and projectiles. Well, link has both of those.

Zair is a REALLY good move. possibly his best. Helps his camping SO much. If link does this move at the right distance, it seems the enemy rolling in is the worst that could happen. However, IIRC link recovers in one frame in a short hopped Zair, so if that does happen, he can n-a in the lag of their roll, immediately sh backwards and fire an arrow, etc…

it seems the worst that can happen in that scenario is that link gets power shielded. But that depends on what choice you make. Either way, zair is a great move. This give him a decent vs. dedede and vs. zelda match imo.

N-air is still really good. I use it to edgegaurd enemies coming from belwo the platform as it works like a slower version of fox’s n-air.

f-tilt has ALOT of reach of knockback but it is a little laggy. Large hitbox, so still very useful.

High mid-tier imo. Low mid at worse. Possibly (stretching it) even the bottom of the high tier around Ike.

TL

Pros:
+FLOATY and surprisingly heavy.

  • Camping game is slightly better and worse than link’s imo. doesn’t need to crouch to stance shield some projectiles and boomerand hits on the way back. However, everything does less damage and bombs don’t ko.
  • Disjointed hit boxes.
  • crazy air game with bair, dair meteor (and oh boy, does it ever meteor) and fair to a lesser extent…
    +…which makes him a much better edgegaurder than his adult counter-part.
    +fast.
  • down throw sets up his air game.
    +dair is actually kind of safe (!!!) because it has a push back effect if it whiffs.
    +great kill moves that are REALLY fast. Up smash is retarded…like melee fox up-smash retarded, dair is retarded, d-smash is retarded, f-smash is retarded…toon link is just retarded, really.
    -priority is decent oeverall

cons
-can be outcamped.
-priority is only decent. Meaning he mostly has to camp vs. Jason Vorhees (meta) and Marth.
-hookshot reach is even worse than melee YL’s. Meaning Zairs aren’t as useful and his tehther isn’t either.
-up-b is only good for racking up damage. Reach has been nerfed since melee it seems.
-mediocre reach

^He needs no intro. High tier, at least imo.

His air u+B is a kill move at higher percents.

Lucas is good, thats why we have him in high tier. I could see Samus moving up to the bottom of mid tier, but no higher than that. She does control space well, but it’s not about how bad she is, but more about how good everyone else is compared to her.

I’ll update the list regardless, at least for the Pros & Cons section.

My thoughts at the moment. (If there isn’t a character here, I haven’t played them enough to place them yet)

Top:

Pit:
*+ Very effective projectile.

  • Unbelievable recovery.
  • Fast and strong.*

No real down side that I can see. He’s got it all. As the bullshit is discovered with other characters (assuming he doesn’t gain some) he can, at worst, go down to high.

High:

Triple D:
*+ Very heavy.

  • Excellent recovery.
  • Can edge guard.
  • Great projectile.
  • Very strong.
  • Not so quick.*

He’s got a lot going for him, but he he strikes me as slightly too slow to make the best use of it. Probably will end up top along with Pit.

Metaknight:
*+ Generally quick moves.

  • Bags of priority (I haven’t seen him trade on anything).
  • Better at edge guarding than most.
  • Can’t SMASH! for shit.
  • Has no projectile
  • Has no spike (that I am aware of)*

Brawl puts much more of an emphasis on smashing over edge guarding, so I think his inability to smash (along with a lack of a spike for early kills) hits him hard. A lack of a projectile will probably have a greater effect than we think it will as well. He’s certainly high up, but not top.

Marth:
*+ Quick and strong moves.

  • Tipper is ridiculous.
  • D tilt cancel.
  • No projectile.
  • Spike is tricky to land.
  • Non-tippers are much worse than you’d think.*

The greater effect of DI makes Tippers (and additionally, spikes) much more tricky to consistently land, so I think a lot of Marth’s effectiveness in that area is significantly diminished. He’s flashy, but I think he’ll work out to not really have the staying power. Probably won’t end up top.

Mid:

Kirby:
*+ Good spike.

  • Surprisingly strong given how quick he is.
  • Can edge guard fairly well.
  • No effective projectile.*

Not really a lot to say here. He’s better than he was, and could end up going higher or lower. The new equivalent of Mario.

Ike:
*

  • Stupid strong
  • Large range
  • Insanely slow.*

They gave Ike a lot of shit to make up for his horrible speed, but a lot of it at the moment is “what? I didn’t know it did that” kind of stuff, which I can see people quickly adapting to. Projectile characters certainly will give him a hard time.

Low:


Bottom:

Mario:
*+ Good projectile.

  • Can’t kill.
  • Spike is slow and weak.*

His projectile is very nice, but he has nothing to finish the job with. In Melee he was good at everything (sans recovery) but not great, and now he’s OK at everything (sans killing) but not great. Mario seems awful to me. Could easily end up bottom.

Ganondorf:
*+ Strong.

  • Some tech chase potential.
  • Slow.
  • No projectile.*

In a game like Brawl slow + no projectile is a recipe for awful. Guaranteed bottom tier. If not the worst character in the game.


A lot of this probably treads old ground but shmeh.

Will update later.