Toon link is easily top; he has 2 projectiles, speed, lots of KO power, pogo stick dair spikes, beastly bair, great aerial game, Only cons he has is being lightweight and having tether recovery.
I don’t have much experience with IC’s but I highly doubt they’re top especially if you put them above toon link.
Like toon link, zelda is one of the few characters who is CLEARLY top.
I agree with the damned samus should be lower, from my experience she kinda sucks.
Charizard and especially shiek should be higher.
Gannon bottom? LOL. Gannon can counter pretty much anyone, he has the best KO power of anyone in the game (kills you below 50%), and has amazing priority on his specials. His flame choke can lead to so many setups I call him dictator. However he is a very hard character to learn and has soooo much lag on most of his moves I would put him between low and mid but definitely not bottom.
As I said before some of the characters can easily move a tier up or down, but they are pretty close to where they need to be.
I was actually thinking about putting TL and Zelda in top tier, so I can see them being moved up.
Well it’s pretty apparent you don’t have much experience with the IC’s if you don’t think they can be top tier. Almost all of their match-ups are fair with quite a few good match-ups thrown in, and like one or two bad match-ups that are only like 4/6 or 4.5/5.5 at best. They do really well against what most people consider the top characters right now, and they excel in a lot of different areas.
Elaborate more on why you think Samus should be lowered and why Charizard and Sheik should be moved up.
Please post Ganondorf’s match-ups, because how it seems to me, he just has a whole lot of bad match-ups with a few fair match-ups, and almost no good ones.
I really am starting to believe that Pit is on the top of the entire game. Excellent recovery, excellent aerial priority. He can spam arrows on marth, and excellent edge guarding on marths recovery. Pit vs Snake is also a horrible match up seeing as Pit has to just abuse arrows like crazy. Snake has a hard time approaching, seeing as when he does Pit has the priority. MK has difficulty knocking opponents out making it even more difficult to KO Pit. Pit has answers to almost everything in the game. Im no Pit fanboy, I fucking hate him, but he is definitely on the top of top. Being a Snake player I know how difficult the Pit VS Snake match is.
Samus’s main weakness is that most of her moves do little damage/knockback and the ones that do good damage/KB are too slow and that’s enough for me to confidently say she most likely won’t see much competitive play, also her grappling beam still sucks. ZSS on the other hand I think will be very popular due to her speed n range.
Charizard is an underrated beast literally, rocksmash spam all day son! He has good range and KO power and for a heavyweight he’s fast especially in the air I don’t know his matchups at all but i’m guessing he’ll end up top of the midtier.
Like I said in the beginning of this thread, sheik is underrated as hell she is one of the fastest characters, can rack up damage faster then most and has great combo potential.
The winner of nintendo’s regional tournaments before brawls release daniel jung, used sheik and absolutely RAPED the nyc, boston, and san franciso winners without items I got the 4 regional winners tourney on my digital camera so i’m not saying that’s proof of sheik being really good i’m just pointing it out.
Pit is definitely good, thats why I put him in top tier. But you’re wrong in thinking that Pit has better priority than Snake. Snake’s tilts can eat up anything Pit throws at him. Up close Snake wins, but at a distance Pit wins. Pit vs. Snake is heavily dependent on the stag.
Samus moves do decent damage and knockback, and her KO moves definitely aren’t slow, this includes Fsmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Bair, and Dair.
Charizard is fairly decent, but he has quite a few bad match-ups against good campers and speed type characters.
Sheik is definitely underrated, thats is why I placed her in Mid tier as opposed to low/bottom tier like every other tier list.
EDIT:
First page has been updated.
EDIT #2:
Sure I’ll play you whenever I get my Wifi up, but I don’t exactly play Samus. And how about you go to training mode test out those moves I listed and tell me how slow you think they are. You’re acting as if her KO moves are so slow that you can compare them to Ike’s or Bowsers. Her KO moves have fairly average speed compared to the rest of the cast. She’s definitely worse from her Melee counterpart, thats why I lowered her down to Mid tier from High tier, but she is definitely better than the characters in low/bottom tier.
One thing I like to note is that characters are only organized by tiers, there isn’t any rankings within the tiers themselves as of now.
I guess I worded it wrong, I personally think Pit has the advantage vs Snake. Pit can turtle with arrows and what can Snake do, shield and tilt to cancel? Pit can come in at flying angles and punishes snakes UpB as he is trying to recover, it is also difficult to play the mine game when Pit can arrow mines and what not. But yes you are correct when it comes to it depends on the stage.
Why is Marth not top tier? He does well against a lot of characters, and only seems to lose out to projectile campers.
And that is why Squirtle is above Ivysaur.
What does Sonic have to put him above bottom tier? His movement speed may be fast, but his attacks are average speed at best. His attacks also have low damage, priority, range and knockback.
I was about to put Dedede in top tier, but after some thought I felt that he had to many notably bad match-ups, so I lowered him to high tier.
Expect more lulz to come.
EDIT:
After some review, I’ve decided to move TL up to top tier.
EDIT#2:
I’ve decided to move Samus down a tier due to popular demand :razzy:
My girl recorded THE ENTIRE DAMN THING, right after the NYC tourney the 3 winners of the other tourneys (la, san franciso, n boston) were in a mini tourney with the nyc winner and all of it combined to determine all 4 places is 25 minutes. So i gotta find a way to chop out the in between since that’s just the annoying announcer saying dumb shit and youtube only allows 10minute clips. I’ll try to seperate and upload footage of those matches ASAP.
Here’s what I got so far: 4 matches of the nyc top 8 and the fourth match is the losers of the first two.
*Note the pit and ike players in the first match are different people then the ike n pit players in the second vid.
The nyc winner knew how to use ike really well, he;s slow but i’d still put him in high tier.
yea, that dude made it sound like they were the best ever. “this is smash at it’s highest level!” Good matches, though. I can see why Marth is high, I think he should’ve used the counter more but I’m guessing it’s too risky in a tourney. I would really like to see that sheik vid as well. There isn’t any rules changing to sheik/zelda is there? I prefer Zelda but would like to know how good sheik is.
edit: Am kinda curious as to why they didn’t use the fans in the Mario vs Pit match? Mario could’ve come back if he kept it.
OMG LOL that ike barely kept his shit together, but then walks into a bomb in the first match?
They actually used minutes instead of stocks? Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
Edit: Ike vs Fox had stocks? Weiiiird.
I think both Yoshi and DK are being underrated. DK is fast, great range, great KO power, great spikes, heavy, can punish roll and techs well and eat up shield well. Most people will argue him not having projectiles, but if you know how to ftilt cancel you can block most projectiles and advance fairly well. He has problems with Dedede infinite grab, but unless they can get a grab, DK rapes in that match. Personally I’d put DK in high mid if not high altogether.
Yoshi is a lot different from Melee. UpBs new horizontal/vertical boost is usually all you need to get back on the stage, and it provides great cover. You can always mix up with DJ too. He can take the fight off the edge with a quick Fair, Dair dragdown into footstool, and his great recovery. He combos well, his slidey physics give him a WD type effect after some aerials, command grab, solid projectile. You can reliably eggroll through projectile campers. I think Yoshi deserves somewhere mid to bottom of mid tier.
DK and Yoshi have been buffed since Melee, but they still don’t stand up well against the other characters. Just look across the roster and tell me which characters they actually do well against. They have trouble with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles, which is basically most of the top/high tier.
Yoshi has more of a problem with projectiles, but DK can ftilt most projectiles and advance, or use dash attack to clink with a lot of projectiles. I’m still learning Yoshi a bit, and haven’t figured out a reliable solution to swords and projectiles yet. With characters with disjointed hitboxes, DK has a little trouble, but if you can outspace and use shield wisely the matches aren’t that bad.
With MK it’s all about spacing. Runaway Bair is great, and I hit a lot of backwards jumped Fair as well vs. MK fair approaches. An overall defensive game utilizing run away with foxtrot and good spacing with ftilt, Bair, Down B gives MK some trouble. Same for Toon Link and Pit. These characters are also very light and with the exception of TL, have a hard time KOing DK, whereas DK needs only to rack up around 100% damage or so and he can get solid kills on these lighter characters.
Unless Dedede gets infinite grab on DK, I believe the match is highly in DK’s favor. Waddle De spam is easily neutralized with Dash attack and ftilt, unless he tosses a gordo (in which case, dodge). Bair is perfect for going over ftilt/dtilt, and outranging D3’s own bair. D3’s fair is a little slow and usually can be stuff with Bair/Uair/Nair. IMO DK is pretty good at breaking through DDD’s defenses, and can actually KO DDD, which a lot of characters have trouble with.
Olimar isn’t a bad fight for DK either. Bair/Nair approaches go over grab, Fsmash, and usually pikmin toss. If you get a pikmin on you, most of DK’s attacks kill them, and the extra damage you get doesn’t hurt DK as much as it does lighter characters. F/Bair are easily stuffed with DK’s bair and tilts. DK has no need to get above Olimar so Usmash doesn’t become much of an issue. Once you get Oli off the stage it’s GGPO by spike/Bair/edgeguard.
With Falco/Wolf DK wins a lot of priority battles, you’re bound to eat a laser occasionally, as it’s hard to ftilt them all, but it’s minimal damage and DK can kind of shrug it off. Recoveries are easy to stuff
Haven’t found Zelda to be that bad, though I haven’t played her much. Bair kills din’s fire, and DK can outspeed and outspace Zelda pretty well.
Ike is just plain slow. Biggest pain with him is making sure you don’t get predictable with smashes/punch and eat counter.
Pika can be a pain in the ass since Dsmash has so much priority and eats DK’s crappy shield, and thunder can be tough to deal with since DK’s hitbox is huge.
Ice climbers also give him trouble since you can’t ftilt cancel ice block, he doesn’t have a good way to deal with freeze, and Icies can devastate him with grabs and wear down his shield.
Other than that I don’t have a lot of experience with other high tier characters, so I can’t tell you much more about his matchups, but would love to play some games against some of the high tiers.
I’m not saying DK is the end all answer to higher tiers or anything like that, just that people usually skip over him because popular opinion states he can’t deal with projectiles and disjointed hitboxes. It’s a little tough for him, but he has the tools to work around it if you’re willing to work a little harder with him. One of his biggest strengths is his KO ability. If you can manipulate the move decay to make his wekaer attacks like bair and tilts combo and save knockback on his KO moves, on top of playing it smart with your spacing you can rack up some damage and KO at fairly early percents, while most characters have a tough time killing him, and he’s difficult to edgeguard.
The thing is, is that characters with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles have a much easier time fighting DK, than he does fighting them. DK may have a few ways of getting around certain things, but most characters do, that doesn’t make it less effective. Say that I’m Pit and all I do is spam arrows while running away, DK may be able to reflect a few projectiles with his Ftilt, but there is no doubt that Pit is the one in control of the match. DK may have a way around things that give him trouble, but it’s still an uphill battle, which makes it a bad match-up.
Well yeah, but just because O. Sagat is the one tossing the fireballs doesn’t mean Balrog can’t win. If I play Boxer vs. O. Sagat, I have to advance through his tiger shots, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s in Sagat’s favor. Just because DK has to advance through projectiles doesn’t doom him. Even Marth has to advance to win. DK may end up being the Honda of this game; bad vs. fireballs, good vs. everything else.
“this is smash at it’s highest level!” Good matches, though. I can see why Marth is high, I think he should’ve used the counter more but I’m guessing it’s too risky in a tourney. I would really like to see that sheik vid as well. There isn’t any rules changing to sheik/zelda is there? I prefer Zelda but would like to know how good sheik is.