Character Ranking Discussion

[white_shadow]

DK and Yoshi have been buffed since Melee, but they still don’t stand up well against the other characters. Just look across the roster and tell me which characters they actually do well against. They have trouble with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles, which is basically most of the top/high tier.

Well said. Yoshi pretty much suffers from the same problem that Mario (who sucks now IMHO) had in Melee, he’s been buffed to the point where he’s just a balanced character, not an overpowered one.

Yoshi has more of a problem with projectiles, but DK can ftilt most projectiles and advance, or use dash attack to clink with a lot of projectiles. I’m still learning Yoshi a bit, and haven’t figured out a reliable solution to swords and projectiles yet. With characters with disjointed hitboxes, DK has a little trouble, but if you can outspace and use shield wisely the matches aren’t that bad.

The main problem with Yoshi in dealing with projectiles and disjointed hitboxes is that he can’t jump out of his shield. Spot Dodging projectiles and disjointed tiltsis also pretty useless in this game because the spamming of high priority tilts/projectiles usually catches up with you eventually.

When dealing with disjointed hitboxes the best thing to use offensively (except on Snake who out-prioritizes EVERY normal in your arsenal) is to use the F-Tilt and Short Hopped Bair. These moves have the speed (and decent priority) to clash or interrupt other moves and setup juggles. Egg Roll w/ Yellow aura can pretty much eat through disjointed hitboxes or at least clash, although the priority is very inconsistent.

Wolf, Zelda, Pit and Toon Link seem to destroy DK utterly. I mean like no chance in hell if these characters are used by smart players. Wolf, Pit and Zelda camping is like the most annoying thing for DK because he has no defense to their projectiles and apart from the fully charged heavy armor Donkey Punch, has no normals that can match theirs.

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My Current Fear:**

I think in a few months really good players, who use bottom tiers really well against mediocre opponents are going to come out of the woodwork and make snazzy “Combo Vids” that will make some Brawlers think that bottom tiers have a chance; only to go into tournies and get creamed when they meet the truly defensive and smart players who know the ins and outs of their “higher” (won’t say top because tiers need to be refined with the advent of new glitches/strats) tiered characters.

Now this isn’t to say they shouldn’t use what they like (I’m a Yoshi/Samus player) and try their hardest, but I just don’t think they should be deluded about the strengths and weaknesses of the characters they play.

[Brahma]

The thing is, is that characters with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles have a much easier time fighting DK, than he does fighting them. DK may have a few ways of getting around certain things, but most characters do, that doesn’t make it less effective. Say that I’m Pit and all I do is spam arrows while running away, DK may be able to reflect a few projectiles with his Ftilt, but there is no doubt that Pit is the one in control of the match. DK may have a way around things that give him trouble, but it’s still an uphill battle, which makes it a bad match-up.

If pit spams arrows, you walk forwards and ftilt each arrow. It’s not hard to do, and even if you eat an arrow or two it’s minor damage, and you get close enough to start an offensive game on pit. I don’t see how it’s any less effective than what he rest of the cast can do vs. pit arrows.

Also, disjointed hitboxes take priority over most of DK’s attacks, but characters like Pit,MK, and TL also have much shorter reach with those hitboxes than DK does overall. If you cause any of those characters to whiff an aerial/tilt, DK basically gets a free attack or at least an opportunity to work offensive. It’s not extremely difficult to outspace, and you also have punch, which eats through single hits.

[Corner-Trap]

In the end both DK and Yoshi fight uphill battles against a lot of characters. They both may have ways around certain things, but theres no doubt that the opposing character has the advantage. Both of them should stay in low/bottom tier simply because of their match-ups. They have more bad match-ups than the average character, with quite a few fair match-ups, and almost no good ones.

[System_1]

how has dk been buffed from melee? in melee dk actually had a chance vs fox, falco, cf, sheik, ice climbers and samus. he was actually pretty good.

[System_1]

1. Why is Marth not top tier? He does well against a lot of characters, and only seems to lose out to projectile campers.

EDIT:

After some review, I’ve decided to move TL up to top tier.

:

And since the vast majority of the metagame involves projectile campers then he can’t be top tier.

Secondly if you didn’t have toon link in the top four at least then I question how much of him you’ve seen. He is a beast.

[EmblemLord]

If Marth isn’t top tier then he is just outside of top tier.

[ZProtoss]

What’s the reasoning for keeping Fox a tier below the top tier in this list? By all accounts he has all the tools required to be at the top tier. (speed, power, projectile, and even an all around great ability like the shine)

[Amazing_Funbags]

Yoshi sould be higher than Mario at least.

[Corner-Trap]

What’s the reasoning for keeping Fox a tier below the top tier in this list? By all accounts he has all the tools required to be at the top tier. (speed, power, projectile, and even an all around great ability like the shine)

Honestly, Fox is probably bottom of the high tier. His speed and power have both been nerfed since Melee, and he gets raped hard in match-ups against lower tier characters like Pikachu and Lucas. A lot of characters can do what he can do but better, we all have to face it, Fox just simply isn’t top tier material any more.

Yoshi sould be higher than Mario at least.

As of now there is no specific rankings within the tier list itself. I’m trying to get everyone in their appropriate tiers first then organize them.

EDIT:

I’ve moved Game & Watch up to high tier.

[white_shadow]

Yoshi sould be higher than Mario at least.

Definately!

[Corner-Trap]

Ok I tried organizing the characters within the tiers, but I haven’t done mid-tier yet. So please go back to the first post and critique.

[UltraDavid]

Why is ROB not in the top tier? He’s great in the air, great with projectiles, and has a couple great moves up close. I haven’t been able to play in the last week and a half on account of a huge paper I gotta write, so maybe people have figured him out in the meantime without my knowing it; anyone have an explanation?

[Keits]

Why is ROB not in the top tier? He’s great in the air, great with projectiles, and has a couple great moves up close. I haven’t been able to play in the last week and a half on account of a huge paper I gotta write, so maybe people have figured him out or something; anyone have an explanation?

I have one. Tiering a game this early with this few tournaments is beyond silly.

[orochizoolander]

^^But theory fighter is addictive AKA crack AKA marvel.

IMO the toptier is easily identifiable (snake aaa anyone?) but otherwise I agree it’s a bit early for definitive tier listings.

*waits for CT to counter keits’s post by saying “I’m trying to get a headstart on tiers and don’t hope to accomplish anything accurate for at least a few months like i told sep.”.

[the_judge]

Tiers will be pointless in this game.
Bcuz every time you say “Such and such is low tier” some1 else comes up and says “No, such and such is easily high tier”

Every1 is high tier material in this game (except good old forgotten Mario)
I say, after maybe 3 big Tournaments, and way more time to think, every1 should start thinking about who’s low tier and work their way up.

This is what happens when a game gets thrown out of proportion, and after about 7 years a new installment comes and every1 has such high expectations for it already.

[Corner-Trap]

Why is ROB not in the top tier? He’s great in the air, great with projectiles, and has a couple great moves up close. I haven’t been able to play in the last week and a half on account of a huge paper I gotta write, so maybe people have figured him out in the meantime without my knowing it; anyone have an explanation?

If people made more of an argument for R.O.B. then he could be moved to top tier, it’s just that people aren’t making a lot of noise for him.

I have one. Tiering a game this early with this few tournaments is beyond silly.

I’m trying to get a headstart on tiers and don’t hope to accomp…

^^But theory fighter is addictive AKA crack AKA marvel.

IMO the toptier is easily identifiable (snake aaa anyone?) but otherwise I agree it’s a bit early for definitive tier listings.

*waits for CT to counter keits’s post by saying “I’m trying to get a headstart on tiers and don’t hope to accomplish anything accurate for at least a few months like i told sep.”.

You must be a mind reader :looney:

Tiers will be pointless in this game.
Bcuz every time you say “Such and such is low tier” some1 else comes up and says “No, such and such is easily high tier”

Every1 is high tier material in this game (except good old forgotten Mario)
I say, after maybe 3 big Tournaments, and way more time to think, every1 should start thinking about who’s low tier and work their way up.

This is what happens when a game gets thrown out of proportion, and after about 7 years a new installment comes and every1 has such high expectations for it already.

What no Mario love?

[J-Nav]

If people made more of an argument for R.O.B. then he could be moved to top tier, it’s just that people aren’t making a lot of noise for him.

R.O.B. should be up there somewhere. His recovery is insane. The Gyro does decent damage/Packs a punch when fully charged. Good spike, & he can do his own version of the Ken combo. :cybot:

[Omega_Viscant]

R.O.B. is a beast. He can shut down most projectile spams with his gyro, has a decent disjointed hitbox on most of his aerials (and on his nair, the hitbox stays out longer than any other move in the game I think) and an instant d-smash (he can pretty much do d-smash straight out of roll without any frames of vulnerability). Also, now that I’m getting the hang of it, R.O.B.‘s finals smash, while not an instant kill, IS pretty much guaranteed damage, since there’s no one in the cast that can out-maneuver R.O.B. unless it’s on New Pork City or Temple. The only thing that R.O.B. has going against him is that he doesn’t really have any good KO moves except his dair spike and his u-smash, both of which are really friggin’ hard to land, so he usually has to wait until his opponent is at high percentages and KO with the gyro. Also, fully charged laser is rape.

…seriously.

P.S.: Also, in case you didn’t know, R.O.B. can aim his face-laser up or down for some awesome ricochet trick-shots.

[UltraDavid]

I think ROB’s nair is one of the best moves in the game, honestly. It covers all 360 degrees around him, stays out for a good second, and recovers on landing almost instantly. Its recovery is so fast that you can do short jump nair with the active hitbox is in front of ROB all day without really worrying about getting punished; you’ll either have a thick hitbox in front of you or you’ll be safe on the ground, and the only time you can get hit is during nair’s startup. Short jump fair has great range and priority and you can get two fairs out in one jump, and short reverse jump bair is a great kill move on walk-off stages. Dair is obviously a great spike, and because of his rockets he can literally float over opponents as they try to recover and get multiple dair attempts.

Dreidel (ROB is short for Rabbi Oren Bernstein, duh) is great because of how versatile it is. Against projectile characters you can charge it up to use for a long-distance knockback and as a threat to keep projectile-happy players on their toes, but against characters who want to get in you can use it as an obstacle to trip them up and keep them out.

ROB’s ledge guarding game is also really good, in my opinion. Knockback, put dreidel near the ledge, float out and try dair, nair, bair, or fair, rocket back on stage, and if dreidel doesn’t get them as they get up, any number of moves (bair, nair, dsmash, etc) can get them instead.

And as Quiche said he’s also good up close, what with dsmash having almost no startup and pretty good killing power, ftilt having good speed, range, and knockback, and jab combo having good speed and knockback too.

[System_1]

I say, after maybe 3 big Tournaments, and way more time to think, every1 should start thinking about who’s low tier and work their way up.

Actually, there have already been truly competitive 70+ man tournaments in four major Smash areas and about a dozen other areas that have hosted 50+ entrant events. This past weekend, Smashboards and Wifiwars ran a 1400 man online tournament that ran for two days. So this game is already getting some major tournament love and some top characters are already starting to stick out ahead of the pack.

Right now, Metaknight, Game & Watch, Falco, ROB, Snake and Dedede seem to be hovering near the top of the pile, with characters like Pit, Wolf, Toon Link and Marth sitting below them. However, its still far too early in the game’s life cycle to determine a highly accurate tier list. If we discover an advanced technique like l-canceling that fundamentally changes the way you play the game, everything could get turned on its head.

One thing to note is that there appears to be more match-up specific issues to consider in Brawl than there were in Melee. For instance, Falco destroys most of the cast with lazer-spam, spaced-smashes, over+b escapes and mixups on his aerials and dash attacks. However, ROB has a really random 0% gimp combo he can pull off for a free kill against the space bird. ROB, likewise, has a few characters that really screw him up, like Zelda. Melee had some top/high tier character match-ups that were like fighting up hill, but none where a top tier character could be totally destroyed for free by a hard-counter.

All that in mind, I think some clear leaders of the metagame are definitely already standing out. It is just going to take some time before we figure out enough about specific match-ups to create some kind of fairly accurate ranked list. If the counter-character issues get really out of hand, it might end up being better for competitive smashers to have a table of ranked match-ups instead, or as a compliment to, the tier list.

EDIT: By the way, Lucario has also won two tournaments in DC. However, its Azen that is winning with him, so its hard to tell if Lucario has the potential to be used by anyone else to that level of effectiveness. There has always been an “Azen Zagenite Exception” when it comes to tiers because he is always so far ahead of most of the rest of the world. In any case, Lucario is a character to watch out for even if Azen is the only one making waves with him so far.