Character Ranking Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Super Smash Brothers Brawl
182

A tier list is match-up based. I thought that’s the way it is.

Only thing is at the highest level mid tier and lower aren’t viable simply because the high tiers and top tiers have the best match-ups and usually have an advantage over anyone lower then them.

Ike is a good exmaple of this. He has all the tools to be high tier. But against Falco he may as well be bottom tier. He does not have the tools to fight Falco who can camp him hard, aggro him hard, CG him, and combo him easily.

Ike doesn’t have the tools to fight anyone better then him really.

So he becomes obsolete like so many of the characters in this game.

183

Well not every tier list is match-up based. Just look at MvC2, CvS2, or in a more related case SSBM. Most of those tier lists were based on character abilities instead of match-ups. So in tier list based on character abilities Ike would rank pretty high because he has good damage, priority, knockback, and range. But on a tier list based on match-ups he would be a bit lower because some characters just kick his ass hard.

184

I’ll be happy to contribute to the olimar matchups section, having played a boatload of olimar. I’m not really confident enough doing anything for any other char.

…seriously.

185

Yeah, I think everyone should start posting match-ups for their mains. I’ll start working on the Ice Climber match-ups.

186

Ye gods, you could at least pretend to say that like it’s “an only for now since you know this is very early in the metagame and I really hope that Brawl isn’t shallow” way and not a seemingly elitist, omnscient way.

But, hey, most of the posts in this thread are like this since this is really freaking premature.

Speaking of which, how is this going to be possible?

I agree with EmblemLord and others who say that it’s kind of unfeasible (and unnecessary) to do a tier list at the moment, considering that most of us are playing online and thus have to deal with lag, even when it seems like we don’t.

I mean, why the hell didn’t you at least bother waiting until there were more tournaments for people who only got to play the U.S. version instead of basically making a thread that masquerades of an intelligent version of “Who’s top tier?! Please validate me!”?

Sigh. Now I’m going to have eventually unsubscribe myself to this thread because I have to wait for your reply and then I have to reply back and yadda yadda while most everyone else plays the role of fear-monger with each other.

Fun times ahead.

187

Ice Climbers kill Bowser, in my opinion. Ice is one of the more annoying projectiles for him to get past, especially if the IC player tricks his Nana until delaying it so that it basically becomes a continuous barrage of ice. This is really hard for Bowser to get through because his roll sucks, he can’t just dodge it, and it’s risky for him to jump over because Popo can roll back on reaction and leave Nana still shooting out an ice for Bowser to land on. ICs also make Bowser’s spd too risky to bother using; if Bowser grabs Nana instead, which seems to happen more often than not to me, Popo gets free punishment and a free kill at higher percentages at any point in the spd animation (ugh, why couldn’t they have made this invincible once the grab starts). IC’s uair also eats up Bowser’s dair and buttslam. Bowser depends on doing huge damage but as a tradeoff doesn’t get many opportunities to use it, and the fact that Nana is out there to essentially double the ICs’ attack output makes finding an opening more difficult than usual.

188

Well, it’s pretty obvious that tier lists is a topic that people like to talk about, I’m simply providing the thread for them.

The Ice Climbers desynched into anything is hard for Bowser to deal with in general. It’s also easier to chain throw him because throw animations last longer on bigger characters which means I get to relax my timing a bit.

189

I think doing a tier or matchup list is super interesting, both as a way to better understand the characters and game and as a way to watch the progression of the game. Looking at tier lists from the early days of games is always really interesting once you get a few years out from the release date.

190

You sure you didn’t spam the knee? The more you spam a move, the less likely it’ll have that knockback effect and damage potency

YO ROB IS THE BEST
HOLLA BACK

191

MvC2 isn’t match-up based because there is no point. That game is dominated by infinites, glitch abuse, keep away tactics and just a whole lot of bullshit that 90% of the roster can’t deal with.

Same with Melee.

192

Going back to DK he is “okay” for the most part he just has to be HELLA patient and abuse his reach.

193

Are you that fucking retarded?

194

Calm down bro.

No need to call people retarded.

If the majority of the cast can’t compete, then what need is there to be a tier list based on match-ups?

Also MvC2 is weird since you can’t do match-ups really. It’s a team based metagame.

All you can do is look at character potential really.

195

I’m quoting emblem lords post from smashboards about mk’s worst matchups because IMO he nailed it perfectly:

Snake and Marth are the most obvious ones IMO.

They are comparable as characters. And they both rack up damage fast, but the main thing is that Marth DOES outrange Metaknight and Marth kills Metaknight alot sooner then he kills Marth.

Metaknight is faster then Marth, but not enough to make a huge difference. They are comparable in speed.

They are not comparable in power though. Marth hits far harder then Metaknight. Marth can camp Metaknight hard which gives him the advantage. And Marth and MK are pretty even in priority although Marth may have a bit more.

Marth really can’t gimp Metaknight, but that’s ok since Marth kills MK early around 80%. And Marth isn’t extremely easy to gimp either, unlike say Wolf who is pretty much the easiest character to gimp in the game.

Marth has advantage in the match-up. They are both fast, but MK’s can’t rack up damage as well as Marth because he isn’t as strong. Marth has dancing blade and is generally stronger. Airdodge denies MK’s possible combos while Marth has dancing blade and d-tilt combos to fall back on. MK also has d-tilt combos, but will have less opportunity to use them since he has trouble getting in. Also MK won’t kill Marth until usually around 120%, which gives Marth more time to deal damage and KO MK.

Also Marth only lags more on his smashes, but a smart Marth isn’t going to be throwing out smashes left and right. He he will use them to net kills and that’s it. Marth can use his non-laggy moves to zone MK and make it hard to approach.

There is simply no way MK has advantage or even has a 50/50 match-up with Marth.

Snake has a solid advantage. His tilts have the same range as Marth’s and more power and alot of priority. He can kill MK just as easily as Marth. And he can camp the hell out of MK making it very hard to approach. And when MK gets in he has to deal with Snake’s superior range, power and priority not to mention that even though Snake moves slow he attacks FAST with all his tilts and his jab combo.

This is probably MK’s worst match-up.

ENDQUOTE

Pit can give mk a hard time with his retarded projectile and side b, not to mention his recovery somewhat mitigates mk’s damage racking ability, rob has a very slight advantage over mk as well for the same reasons.

Wolfs bad matchups are…anyone who can gimp him well actually but a good wolf who knows how to stay grounded is tough for anyone.

Bowser’s bad matchups is snake, anyone fast, and anyone with a projectile (especially diddy and his retarded bananas!!!)…yeah my boy bowser has a lot of tough matchups because so much of the cast can capitalize on his uber laggy moves.

Ike is almost directly countered by anyone with a projectile even mario and it doesn’t help that his moves can be seen coming a mile away and IMO he doesn’t hold up to the other swords.

Tether characters…well yeah you get it.

196

There are match ups based on the team you use in Marvel.

Melee had character AND stage counter picking.

EVERY fighter, hell almost every game that you can look at competitively has counter picking.

Just some times it’s not as stressed/used/abused as others.

197

orochi: Some nigga is trying to argue with me in that thread and I’m raping him hard.

This is how I see MK.

He is a lesser verison of Marth in all thier match-ups.

Any match-up that Marth rapes in MK only has advantage.

Any match that Marth is even in MK has disadvantage.

Any match that Marth has disadvantage MK is at bigger disadvantage.

That’s just the way I see it honestly.

198

Marth and mk have a lot of similarities but i wouldn’t classify mk being a lesser version of marth in the least. The way I see it mk is a very different character then marth who happens to play similarly (aggressively).

IMO I don’t think anyone can definitively say who the overall better character is; marth has range, tipper attacks, dancing blade, and takes more to get ko’ed while mk has recovery, better damage racking, better priority, and gets ko’ed alot easier.

199

Does Toon Link have any bad matchups?

He just seems very well rounded in my opinion. Kinda light and doesn’t have the best of priority, but he has a quick, efficient close-range game and enough projectiles (good ones, btw) to make him a camping beast.

200

Here are my views on the IC’s matchups:

Bowser - Good
Captain Falcon - Good
Charizard - Good
Diddy Kong - Fair (Bananas are annoying as hell)
Donkey Kong - Good
Falco - Fair (Desynched NeutralB can stop SHDL)
Fox - Fair
Game & Watch - Fair
Ganondorf - Good
Ike - Good
Ivysaur - Good
Jigglypuff - Fair (It’s hard to grab since she’s always in the air)
King Dedede - Good (His throw game is shutdown since one IC can always interrupt him)
Kirby - Fair
Link - Good
Lucario - Fair
Lucas - Fair
Luigi - Fair
Mario - Good
Marth - Fair (He out prioritizes you on some moves)
Meta Knight - Fair
Ness - Fair
Peach - Good
Pikachu - Bad (Really good at separating the IC’s)
Pikman & Olimar - Fair (IC’s can easily gimp his recovery since they can ledge hog and edge guard at the same time)
Pit - Fair
R.O.B. - Fair
Samus - Fair
Sheik - Fair
Snake - Fair
Sonic - Good (Sometimes hard to grab since his attacks can cross-up)
Squirtle - Fair
Toon Link - Fair
Wario - Good
Wolf - Good
Yoshi - Good
Zelda - Fair
Zero Suit Samus - Fair (Her whip is hard to deal with)

Overall the IC’s have fair match-ups with a few good and bad ones spread around.

201

How can you spam something that needs awkward timing to do effectively? Even if I did it once before (which I didn’t) it should’ve still killed.