I respect that, but I think most of us who use Morrigan are fly-canceling her stuff after jumping anyway, so if we need to block, it’s just a 1-frame flight cancelation away. In some ways, Morrigan is actually the safest air dashing character in the game because she works this way.
I honestly think that Capcom is designing Astral Vision to be a necessity for her to win zoning matches, and Soul Fist S spam is her way to regain the meter she spent to dominate the zoning game for a while. I could be wrong, but it looked like Soul Fist S does more damage than her normal versions when I looked at recordings. Zoning characters can’t do anything about fireballs coming from behind them, so we’ll need to get Astral Vision up and force them to be defensive for a bit.
I’m not saying Morrigan will be great, but we’ve all been using her despite her being pretty bad in MvC3 (mid tier at best, I think we can all agree?). Why change now? I think it’s in the best interest of our mental health to at least wait until the UMvC3 guide comes out so we can get a full layout of her changes and what new options she has, if any. That’s my semi-optimistic perspective. I’m not taking any single change on any single character to heart until we have the full deal in front of us.
I remember when the Dormammu forums got somewhat upset because the only change we knew about was the Flame Carpet nerf. It took another month for people to figure out the huge list of buffs he got, many very subtle and difficult to find, before we found out that we’re actually very happy with the character in his UMvC3 form, and it’s an improvement despite that nerf. Really, how many competent Morrigan players are playing out there to let us know what’s going on with her?
I can understand waiting and being optimistic, but a change that makes Astral vision a necessity for her to get in seems like another uneccessary handicap. One of the biggest complaints about Morrigan has been the fact that she was a meter hungry character due to her low damage. It cut her potential drastically. Now that we are getting a new game she may NEED meter just to get IN.
Dormammu still wouldn’t be as bad as Morrigan even with a flame carpet nerf and no major changes. Hell, they can’t even remember which costumes of hers are even old lol. They haven’t done much of anything to keep Capcom fans(and Darkstalker fans especially) hopeful.
Actually, Morrigan is the worst character to unfly and block with, as she’s the only character with a flight mode that has recovery. It’s only a single frame, but add that to both reaction time and the time to input the QCB+S for unfly, and she will get hit with shit that Magneto/Storm/MODOK/Phoenix/Iron Man/etc would have barely blocked in time.
Soul Fist S, unless things have changed greatly, is also the slowest moving projectile in the game. Someone like Deadpool could easily jump backwards over it and use M Trigger Happy to shoot back anyway. Gotta remember that AV clones are always equal distance from the target as Morrigan as well, so full screen gives a shit ton of time to react to that.
I just honestly don’t see what she could possibly get that would be worth not ever being able to move forward safely at a meaningful speed. Also, if you really want a safe approach, Astral Vision is considerably worse than Finishing Shower. Especially faster start up Finishing Shower. I already do that now from time to time, but it’s basically a necessity unless you want to get a beam to the face.
While this is true, with the advent of air dashes being fully vulnerable, Morrigan, being the only flight character that regularly travels around in flight mode, now has an advantage.
And with higher base damage, we’ll get more meter from the combos once we do get in!
I thought we were in agreement since the last video that its speed had been buffed?
The slow startup time always makes me scared to do that.
Soul Fist S has ridiculously slow startup time which I confirmed at EVO, so the only people who will get hit with are people who don’t know what blocking is.
She’s still horrifyingly free against Wesker and Doom, and now she can’t even block their projectile counters because her only way to close the distance just got hit with the nerf bazooka.
It’s pretty much over for her, but I guess she can continue being the “gimmick character” that Capcom described her as in one of the free Shadow Battle packs. What a waste of dev effort.
Yeah… that is nice and all, but it is a worse trade. At least having the mobility to get in means that the meter is never wasted once you connect your combos. Wasting meter for something as unsure as rushdown will not pan out well at all. Who is better in this game Hulk or Zero? Haggar or Ammy? Trish or Magneto?
The one thing that you will notice is that the best characters in the versus series are determined not by their damage, their all around tools, but their mobility and their ability to close in on the opponent. Most of the mid tier characters in the game are already designed in a way that doesn’t require meter for them to get in. What will happen in a meter intensive game when Morrigan needs to blow Astral constantly? It is not like she has combos that build two meters(or even one and a half lol).
Sent uses his flight mode for movement more than anyone actually. It’s also damned fast.
But meter gain was reduced to 90% of base damage instead of 100% so, Morrigan likely didn’t go anywhere, assuming the new HSD mechanics allows all of her combos to work the same.
Yes, it moves faster than it did at Evo, but it’s still the slowest moving projectile in the game other than maybe Eye of Agamatto, but that tracks. It just no longer moves at 1/8th to 1/10th of the speed of Soul Fist L. Soul Fist S still has the “Longer than vanilla Finishing Shower” start up time too.
See above - the start up time on Soul Fist S is easily more double that of Vanilla’s 18+2 for Finishing Shower, and around three to four times that of Ultimate Finishing Shower.
Sort of like people who get by Hulk and Sentinel? Everyone makes mistakes, it’s a reality of fighting games. People get hit by clone fireballs all the time just because it’s sometimes hard to remember that there’s stuff coming in from behind you, from an area you have no vision of.
What are you referring to?
I am an extremely bold man, sir.
Depending on Morrigan’s new minimum height requirement to attack out of a ground dash, though, she might have some of the fastest instant overheads in the game now for when she does get in. For me, getting in has never been difficult with Morrigan, and it wasn’t thanks to her blocking ability while dashing (I always found it irritating that you have to keep holding forward to continue her dash, oi!), it is because stopping the approach of a character backed by a projectile is really hard, and we all know this. Morrigan is one of the very few characters in this game able to produce her own cover, and with relative safety. My issue with her always has been actually getting a combo going once she gets in, because her mix-ups are pretty weak.
We don’t know her UMvC3 combos. Meter gain is based off of base damage, and hers has been upped all around. Keep in mind that at no point have I claimed that Morrigan is going to be high or top in this game - I still retain the belief that she is missing some critical tools to be a full, strong character. I am only arguing that I don’t think the air dash vulnerability change is as big of a nerf to her as it seems, and that people who have suffered Morrigan throughout Vanilla shouldn’t be persuaded to dump her in Ultimate because of that change.
You are right. I stand corrected on that point, but I don’t think it affects my argument. Maybe that’s why I find fly-canceling with Morrigan so intuitive - so much Sentinel play! Haha.
We may want to do something like jump, Soul Fist L, fly-cancel, Soul Fist S, and then approach behind the S.
Err, Morri has combos that actually do build 1.5+ meters outside of AV, and >2 in AV. Outside of the AV combos though, she has to make a choice - meter OR damage. She doesn’t get both in the same combo. Up to 1.8 meters is possible iirc without AV.
And this will work on the rushdown characters, and Chris. Against Deadpool, and Dormammu, two very common character I foresee being her worst match ups in Ultimate? No. Deadpool will H Trigger Happy through the first and hit you in the start up of the second. Dormammu…has quite a few options to shut it down. Not the least of which being the start up on Soul Fist S is slow enough for him to dash forward, store 1R/1B and drop rocks on her head for trying it. I honestly didn’t think it possible, but with the air dash change, Dormammu is now an even worse match up for Morrigan than he was in vanilla. There’s no longer the issue of Flame Carpet when you get in, it’s now just impossible to get in.
Deadpool and Dormammu were already good, and very good respectively. From what we know, they got considerably better. Storm and Trish were also rough for Morrigan, and got better. Trying to dash in on Storm is going to get you mashed Hail in the face. Essentially, nothing really changed with Morrigan’s good match ups, her neutral ones became bad, and her bad ones became terrible. She won’t even have a good XF3 anchor game to hang on to as a meter maid assist anymore, because with the XF damage scaling change she’d need to be getting close to a +200% damage increase in XF3 to be as potent as she was, and well, we’re looking at around 90% now.
It may be the case that she’ll still have a few bad matchups, but what character does not? It’s not like Morrigan is Haggar or something, where she’s 3-7 or worse against most of the cast just because they have a projectile.
Haha, I wish Dark Spells went off that fast!
I never found Trish to be a difficult matchup, personally. I actually count it among her easier ones. Ice Storm has 40 frames of startup in Vanilla. Assuming that’s the case, Morrigan has enough time to fly-cancel whatever she’s doing and then cancel the flight to block (16 frames total between the two actions if you are awesome in execution) so she doesn’t eat the Ice Storm. I don’t see that as being an issue.
From the SDCC tournament, I thought she was putting out even more damage than she does in Vanilla. I think a judgment on this is premature.
Dark Spells do go off that fast. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you - the start up time on Soul Fist S was somewhere between 45 and 60 frames in the SDCC build (TK Shot H is 35 frames of Start up in Vanilla. Phoenix’s flight is 19 in Vanilla TK Shot H supposedly got slower in Ultimate. Super jumping, activating flight, and tossing a TK Shot H was faster in the SDCC build than just throwing a Soul Fist S on the ground). And while the projectile has gotten faster it doesn’t look like start up has at all. Add the first Soul Fist L/M in, the flight cancel, and the dash start up, and yes, dash in, 1R/1B, Liberation is perfectly possible.
If you didn’t find Trish difficult you aren’t facing Trishes using her entire arsenal at all times. Round Trip along with Low Voltage and Hopscotch make it essentially impossible to make any progress in zoning, and make it a nightmare to get in. When you do get in, you have to deal with Peekaboo, and if Trish is backed by any long lasting assist like Dark Hole you have to put up with her rush and pressure game. And Trish’s dive kick crosses up crouching Morrigan pretty much anywhere, but anticipating and blocking it as a cross up will often get you combo’d off a Peekaboo instead since it’s cancelable. Hail Storm is also hit confirmable off whirlwind, and Whirlwind god stomps Soul Fist, and most assist beams because of how it works.
SDCC/Evo build still clearly had minimum of 50% damage scaling in place from playing. XF combo damage was essentially identical for any of the characters that had 90%+ bonus damage like Wesker, Wolverine, Dark Phoenix, Doom, etc. Morrigan was doing more damage in that build, because XF3 had been normalized in damage and speed already, but they hadn’t changed durations or scaling yet.
Dark Spells take 35 frames to complete. I understand the point you’re making, and I understand that Soul Fist S is slow to come out, but a dash, two Dark Spells, and unleashing 1D1C undoubtedly takes significantly longer.
Dormammu still has to deal with that first Soul Fist L/M in this case; he’s not dashing in, but maybe he is kara-canceling s.M into a Dark Spell in this situation.
I usually call out a clone and spend my time in the air throwing out Soul Fists. My Morrigan always comes in with at least 3 bars of meter, so I’m happy to chip her down over time. If Trish starts taking to the air, then I jump with her, Soul Fist H, and then guess whether she’ll drop to avoid it or try to counter it with another Soul Fist H or a Soul Fist L.
Ice Storm combos off of Whirlwind, but you have to cancel Whirlwind into Ice Storm almost as soon as it comes out; it’s not like Dark Hole or something, where you can hit confirm into Ice Storm.
I thought we were talking about from super jump height here? You can walk forward under Soul Fist Ls from that height. And if he didn’t want to style, there’s always a simple purification. Same with Storm - if you want to be sure, there’s Elemental Rage. As far as Hail, you only need 2 of the whirlwinds to hit. If Morrigan is dashing in, you’re probably going to have more than enough time to confirm off one of the 7, and 2 more to connect into the Hail.
Morrigan has a shitty space control game against anyone else running the same game plan, and no way to approach them. So yeah, she’s basically looking to lose to most characters with a projectile for free. I honestly have no idea how you’re getting enough space on Trish to even activate Astral Vision, let alone run a real zoning game afterwords.
Dormammu has the slowest walk speed in the game. He can’t walk under shit, trust me. It took me about 1500 matches before I just completely gave up on trying to dash under people jumping in on me to cross them up from underneath. It’s a guaranteed mess with the guy.
Certainly, at no point have I intended to argue that Dormammu is a good matchup for Morrigan. I was simply joking that I wish Dormammu could get a dash, two Dark Spells, and 1D1C off in the time it takes Morrigan to get Soul Fist S out.
Whirlwind’s startup is so long, though. I don’t feel particularly threatened by it.
As long as I can get one Soul Fist off in the air that she has to block, I can drop to the ground, throw another, and cancel into Astral Vision. That’s how it goes usually, at least.
It might just be me, but I think wesker and doom are actually some of her better match-ups due to how you can easily out-zone them. Although if either of them lands a hit you are basically dead.
Edit: I also agree with Karsticles about the Trish match-up, I think that is actually one of Morrigan’s better matchups. She should be the one approaching you(unless you’re way behind on life/time) rather than you going through her mess of traps
Aw man, I was hoping Morrigan would be alot better in UMvC3 than Vanilla but after reading this thread it sounds like she’ll have a real challenge ._.
If my UMvC3 knowledge base serves me right… The game is gonna be more of a strategic/zoning way of playing than Rushdown/Combo execution base.
So shouldn’t Morrigan players find the right characters to make up for her lack of weakness and and compliment for her awesome battery potential?
If it’s a “getting in” problem, shouldn’t you get a character that will get in and then TAC into morrigan, (since she has flight cancel combos) combo into FS, then you can just DHC into another character. Though hit stun deterioration is pretty brutal. So this might be hard to pull off?
I’ve always played Donovan in Darkstalker games (never really tried to pick up Morrigan)
And I’m starting to play her alot in MvC. (Her playstyle is so unique!)
Please don’t make me shy away from this character in competitive play, Morrigan seriously looks like she has alot of potential in UMvC3 if you find the right characters and play your cards right.
Btw Karsticles, you sound like a really nasty Morrigan player xD I really want to play you in a match and learn some sick tricks.
I don’t think my Morrigan play is anything special, but thank you for the compliment.
I think a lot of people anchor Morrigan to abuse Dark Harmonizer, so we are considering her drawbacks from an anchoring perspective, and not necessarily what it means for her in team construction. At least that’s where I am coming from.
