Capcom, The way to Strenghten Guile is

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
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Because you could look at that character as a standalone character and make improvements without saying “Well what do other people do good?”…? You could come to the conclusion that his Ultra sucks without looking to other people’s ultras, it clearly is too difficult to connect the entire thing and it doesn’t really serve any purpose for Guile outside of a random ~200 damage anti-air because the second kick only tipped them.

Do you legit think that they made one character and arbitrarily based all balance on that character? How exactly do you think they make these things? Why do you think that there are such a thing as imbalances? They don’t compare characters to other characters to make balance changes, you can’t make a change to specifically help a character in one match-up as that change affects all their match-ups.

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Oh god you’re one of those… “I want Guile to be good just not so good that people flock to him.”

…Do you know what an improvement thread is?

Have you ever thought that, perhaps, Ryu actually just needs to be toned down so that he can’t combo 3 medium normals together or a series of light punches into a sweep?

HAH! Why don’t you go over to their thread to troll then? Atleast if you wanted something to be toned down over there you’d make sense.

If you’re being knocked out of your combos, then you’re incapable of 1-frame links, which is entirely your fault.

Too bad you can’t read or you’d know that ryu and sagat can do it out of target combo on block as well, and since the game is going to be online a little bit of lag is expected which gives those characters more unfair advantages if 1-frame links for this character aren’t tweaked.

Wow you just said that Guiles recovery on flashkick is better than ryus SRK!! What idiot could possibly say that? Who’s going to throw out random hard punch srk’s without being able to FADC? You? We can’t balance the game around people who don’t know what they are doing as badly as you want it to happen ok buddy?

Every version of FK is super punishable, compared to ryu and ken who can toss lp SRK’s out randomly and if you’re not RIGHT there then YOU get punished and possibly ultra’d, but that’s balanced to you because a noob might through out fierce dragon punches all day.

The guy saying guiles normals are better than ryu’s is calling me stupid when he can’t provide evidence, and he doesn’t even know the definition of balance so he thinks comparing characters is invalid.

You and your friend Tr011y think Guile is fine, where’s the evidence again? Frame data,tourny results,professionals, and even designers are against you. Moms basement doesn’t count as evidence, find something better to do.

You could come to the conclusion that his Ultra sucks without looking to other people’s ultras, it clearly is too difficult to connect the entire thing and it doesn’t really serve any purpose for Guile outside of a random ~200 damage anti-air because the second kick only tipped them.

How could you come to that conclusion? Hell, why don’t we just use the ultra after a hard punch SRK right? If you listene to your intellectual twin, he says the ultra is fine if you know how to use it, what’s the difference between you really? Besides the fact that with the name Tr011y, you expect him to say dumb things for a reaction.

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An improvement thread would be to improve Guile. The desire to hold Guile back so that he doesn’t become a popular character is hilarity though, “Yea i support reasonable buffs to other characters too because believe it or not, i don’t want Guile to be too high a tier because i don’t want alot of bandwagon followers picking him up…”

Really striving to be that snowflake eh?

Anyways…

Ryu doesn’t have a target combo. Could be wrong, Sagat doesn’t either, but I’ve never actually picked him up so I wouldn’t know; just haven’t seen anyone do it if he does. You’re absolutely right though, Guile shouldn’t be able to be Shoryu’d out of his (A target combo is a series of normals that cancel into each other, Ken’s s.mp xx s.fp is a target combo despite that it’s horrendously terrible to use). Guile cannot, however, be shoryu’d out of properly executed block strings and if you -are- being srk’d out of your target combo it means that you’re abusing it too much and you’ve become predictable. They have 2 frames to execute the Shoryu to punish your target combo, people don’t have that reaction time which would mean they’re mashing it; if they’re mashing it then had you just blocked and baited them trying to srk through your target combo then you’d be able to punish them far, far harder.

Personally, I find Guile’s target combo not as useful as it could be; it’s useful every so often for a bit of damage, but it seems odd they’d attach it to c.mk. I feel that they should have attached it to c.mp and push c.mp’s block stun up to 15 (which would null the possibility of being hit between your target combo). The point of that being to give you proper distance for your target combo always; c.mk is too slow and pointless to throw out at that close a range. c.mp on the other hand is something you throw out at close range quite often and would never put you out of range to link the f.mp if it were the target combo.

What is it exactly you’re trying to say here? I say: “Guile’s ultra sucks.” You say: “God, this other guy says Guile’s ultra is good, WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU TWO?” … ? Perhaps that I’m pointing out that Guile’s ultra is terrible in all respects and he is arguing that it’s fine?

Every single light punch srk gives you enough time to super punish; perhaps you should get better reaction time. Alternatively, why do you have super and why are you trying to punish that with a super?

Guile’s recovery on Flash Kick -is- better than Ryu’s SRK. Here’s a better question; for those “noobs who throw out fierce shoryus”, why is it that you’re throwing flash kicks that aren’t hit confirmed or deep anti-airs? The argument you pointed out against SRK’s applies entirely to Flash Kicks. You never, ever throw out a flash kick that you don’t think will hit unless you have the meter to FADC out of it.

I’m confused as to why you think I think Guile is fine. You even straight quoted me saying that Ryu is unarguably a better character than Guile in totality; I just feel that his normals are better than Ryu’s. That’s it. Ryu has one good poke, c.mk. His solar plexus is too slow and if you’re not a downsie you can hit him out of it, outside of that his normals have terrible range. Guile has many pokes, they all have solid range (f.fp, fp, rh, c.mk, etc.) and do mostly above average or average damage. His normals are fine for the most part.

And, just a heads up. When you start throwing out things like “Strawman” and “Red-Herring”, you’ll want to start avoiding things like ad hominem in the future.

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First we need to look at what is the goal of using Guile. First of all Guile is a defensive and punishing character. He is a character designed to punish predictability. If you become predictable with crossups airthrow. Become a predictable jumper? cr. FP, airthrow, flashkick, etc. Guile is a character who is meant to control a lot of space by zoning someone out, and his game is supposed to be played about 98% on the ground. He has always been that character who wears people down, and only a really smart and knowledgable player could generally penetrate Guile. Guile is not meant, and I mean NOT meant to kill you based on zoning. He is meant to zone to give you less space and close you in. In the corner his massively good sonic booms and SAFE normals are suppose to keep you locked down and trappd in the corner. This is how Guile is meant to be played.

Now this raise the quetion, “Does SFIV Guile accomplish these goals?” I would say sorta, but not really. First, the most essential thing to have in a Guile arsenal is a sonic boom. Now how good is Guile’s sonic boom in this game? Well if one were to not look at it’s abysmal damage, and just look at it’s properties, they’re pretty damge good. When you buffer them right, you can pretty much out projecticle anyone. Smarter Guile players generally know how to zone well, although it’s a very complex way of zoning. However Guile’s with superior zone games are generally far more consistent. So what’s wrong with the sonic boom? Well for one, they don’t chip very well. Generally someone can eat several of them and not get pinched, and get a lucky jump in. The sonic booms in the past were a steel fortress, now they’re a fortress made of wood. IT’s very easy to get through it, so now his first line of defense is easily nullfied. Sure you can still control a good amount of the match with them, but eh they could be better.

So now we have his normals, and more importantly his anti-airs. This is how Guile really amass his damage. If your opponent does something stupid, how do you punish him? Well Gule’s crounching fierce does laughable damage. Look at a few match videos or go into training mode. Half of the cast doesn’t lose but a few pixels of life from a cr.FP. Okay how about flashkick. If timed, it does alright damage. It’s very risky to throw out, but if you time it, then you’ll be okay. You just can’t rely on it, but Guile has more anti-airs like s.mk. Now s.mk does even LESS damage than cr.FP. And not only that it only hits clean from a jump angle that’s hard to spot at times. Sure it’s more effective against people like E.Honda, but for the amount of timing you need for it, it doesn’t even punch your opponent. St. FP does okay damage, but again nothing to write home about.

Guile’s normals suck because they do no damage. Half of the time they miss as well. And Guile’s combo punishers suck, and only one really knocks down, but it’s so hard to time, that most people just go for the lousy cr.lk, cr,lp, s.lp, s.FP combo. Oh and that combo is even hard to do, and he gets nothing for his efforts. Guile has priority, and even some range. Who gives a shit, because no damage comes out of it.

If priority of normals was enough to be a good character, then Rufus would be low tier. The guy has shitty normals, but this guy is still winning fucking tournaments. Why? Fuck the dude has damage. Even when Rufus hits you, it hurts. Everyone has figured out his gimmicks by now, and the guy is still able to win. How about that?

It’s obviously that SFIV is a game about damage more than anything. IF Ryu did shitty damage that took small pixels off his opponent’s life, he’d be pretty shitty too. As it stands, Ryu outdamages Guile and by a lot. But let’s not pick on Ryu, Chun and KEn outdamages him too. Ken players have nerfed damage, but they’re in a better boat than Guile.

So what happens when you pretty much nerf the importance of zoning to a character whose entire game relies on it? You get a low tier character. Sure you’ll get a functionally okay one worth using, but he really has nothing that other characters don’t have. Winning with Guile is a fucking uphill battle every fucking time. You work and work to chip away someones damage, and bam they even the score with Guile. Seriously there are some characters who can still random Guile out even in high level play. Ryu, Sagat, Viper, Rufus, Abel, etc can all random Guile out. Sure Guile can stop it from happening, but how can he stop it? Oh yeah with sonic booms, that serve only as an annoyance, becase in SFIV your opponent is going to get in, no matter how shitty he is. You basically have to have zoning games on par with Yazu to keep most characters out.

In closing, Guile can still play his game. He just can’t play it well, nor can he play it consistently. This needs to change. Anyone who say it doesn’t seriously know nothing about Guile’s limitation in this game.

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**An improvement thread would be to improve Guile. **

Durr. And how can someone be so dense that they’d criticize NOT overpowering a character, but then they whine about buffing what he ac tually needs?

Perhaps that I’m pointing out that Guile’s ultra is terrible in all respects and he is arguing that it’s fine?

He has as much evidence as you do…being NO evidence.

Every single light punch srk gives you enough time to super punish; perhaps you should get better reaction time.

So your style of guile if that you sit on downback all day long? Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s far less punishable.

why is it that you’re throwing flash kicks that aren’t hit confirmed or deep anti-airs?

If you could read, you’d know that sometimes because of the combined questionable hitboxes, ryu can pass right through you as he jumps in with an attack, without being hit. Then, because of your horrible recovery time, he can walk up right behind you and you get punished.

How does that justify the fact that this is so punishable again? Because guiles normals are awesome right? Why should we take away some of the recovery on this move when he already has to charge for it(unlike ryu) it can’t juggle to ultra or super(unlike ryu) and it sure as hell can’t be tossed out randomly(like ryu) and noone can use it to break another persons combo’s by mashing? Go look up what balance is, either everyone should be super punishable like guile clearly is, or everyone should have good recovery as about nearly everyone else is…which is easier to fix?

**I’m confused **

Fixed. Like the other trolls, you don’t understand anything. Between you and the other guy who also has NO evidence, guile should be fine, but he’s clearly not so if you were sensible you’d quickly come to the conclusion that you’re wrong.

Hey, if you want to throw out attacks while you say retarded things that make me think your not even old enough to know how guile was in other games, don’t whine when i retaliate with an attack you’ve gone out of your way to earn.

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I’m the troll here? You’re not even arguing a point. You’re here talking about how shitty he is and when someone agrees with you you’re like “YOU DON’T HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT.” Obviously fucking not it’s an opinion.

What kind of evidence of that are you looking for? You read the first sentence of each paragraph and move on.

Here’s my evidence of why I feel that Guile’s Ultra is terrible; it has trouble fully connecting as an anti-air or a juggle regardless of how it’s applied, in fact, unless the person is grounded, Guile’s ultra misses much of the damage it’s supposed to do. Therefore I conclude that it’s not meant to be used as an Anti-air. On the ground, it has nothing to unique to punish. It doesn’t zoom you through a fireball and beat ass on them like Abel, it doesn’t even punish as well as his normal flash kick does due to it’s slow startup. Outside of very early Anti-Air light flash kicks into ultra there’s no way to juggle into it as a punish.

And yes, you can juggle a flash kick into a super or ultra, you just need to hit them towards the peak of their jump with a light or medium flash kick (hard works, but it’s -extremely- tight…I’ve never landed the ultra off of it, only the super), the super actually does more damage due to how terrible the way his Ultra connects is off of this juggle.

Outside of a focus attack or your opponent doing something like a full screen tatsu or whiffed shoryu, there’s no reliable way to DO anything with his ultra.

Making it’s startup equivalent to that of a normal flash kick and having properties to either draw the opponent in as it hits them to avoid the “just tipping them” issue it has if you use it too early as an AA or…and I feel this is a better option: make it function exactly like Ken and Abel’s ultra. Once the first kick connects, go into an animation that sets them somewhere. Ken’s ultra can drag people out of the air and onto the ground when used as an anti-air, Guile’s needs to do that.

This is all things I’ve said before, so what exactly are you looking for as evidence?

I play an above average Ryu ~40-50 times a day, not once have I ever, ever seen him go -through- my flash kick. The only thing I could think of is that you did it extremely early and you assume that the flash kick’s trail behind Guile’s foot is part of the hit-box; it’s not. Should it be? Sure I guess you could argue that, but really, it’s just you doing it way too early. There’s nothing magical about Ryu’s hitbox that lets him float through Flash Kick’s.

Could his light kick flash kick be faster on recovery? Yeah, totally, and I feel that’d improve his game a lot by giving him juggle opportunities like lk.fk anti-air > ex.sb / super / ultra.

Don’t get me wrong, I feel like I agree with some of the ideas behind what you’re saying, I just disagree with how you’re saying them, and that’s on me: that’s just something I do, feel free to ignore me. I truly think your reasoning is stupid and pointless: Guile doesn’t need better normals or specials or ultras because Ryu has them, he needs them because HE needs them to be better as a standalone individual character. Guile’s ultra sucks in comparison to Ryu’s. It also sucks in and of itself, which is a better and more important reason to change it than comparing it to what other people have: even if Guile was the only character with an ultra, people still wouldn’t use it because it’s bad. It’s not because other people’s ultras are better that Guile’s ultra sucks, it’s because his ultra in and of itself, disregarding others, it’s objectively bad and serves no purpose. You don’t need to look to other ultras to see that his ultra is bad, it should be obvious in how difficult it is to connect and how little damage it does even when it does.

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You’re wasting your time, man. Not one tidbit of this will get through.

Just sayin’. He’s a selective reader.

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Easier ultra motion. Give him that big MVC2 sonic boom super!

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Nah…ultra (#1) motion is fine. Just fix everything else about it…

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+Improves range on Backhand
+Improved “priority” and/or hitbox on c.forward (this is one of his signature pokes, and I don’t think it’s good enough in four)
+Improved Flash Kick. Seriously it’s been said enough, the move needs to work as it is supposed to.

That’s it.

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Again, you can’t just arbitrarily improve how far his back-hand goes. It’s an actual model you’re working with, it’s not a 2D sprite that flashes a bunch of still frames to emulate movement; it’s a 3D model that is actually moving and it’s proportions never change.

Farther range is something you just won’t see unless Capcom decides to make his arms longer.

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The backhand could be solved with a bigger hitbox that hits duckers?

Guile and Vega are both problem characters. They each have a move you don’t want to be too good (sonic boom and izuna drop). And yet it is the signature move that makes them unique.

I think we are approaching this the wrong way. Why not just sonic boom even better? I know it’s a long shot, but you could make guile’s sonic boom equivalent in gamebreaking as Sagat’s current Tiger shot. Make it deal more damage or have even faster recovery (hey I can hope right?)

All these changes is borderline making Guile a whole different character. I’m not for that.

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SFIV, uses hitboxes that are separate from the character models like a proper 2D fighter and not collision detection.

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Proportions DO change. Do a Headbutt with Balrog. His head swells up like a balloon :rofl:

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nah it’s just a 3D models within a 2D game if i make any sense. hit detection is not like tekken or VF.

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And those hitboxes are generally around body parts that are a fixed size. What you’re asking is to let his backfist hit someone without even looking like they connected or what here? When someone says something like “it needs more range”, moving it over a few millimeters isn’t something that would satisfy that request.

I didn’t really bring up the hitboxes, just that it’s easier to give range to a 2d sprite because you can make his arm look longer than it is when he’s idle during that attack animation: you can’t do that in a 3d environment without stretching the limb.

It’s very obvious that Capcom wanted to try to stick to the confines of the model as much as humanly possible; go into training and just sift through characters and try to get -just- out of max range for their normals, some of them go so far as to clip into the opponent’s model without actually connecting.

I don’t see that change improving his gameplay much nor do I see it as a realistic thing Capcom might do, just based on how much work they put into making things like extending hitboxes beyond a character’s model not happen.

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More damage is reasonable…faster recovery is pretty funny eheh

He doesn’t need to be a different character, he needs to be the character he’s been up until SF4 came out

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Yea, make one mistake vs a good Gief and you get knocked down via spinning lariat, green hand, or 360 throw. Next step is cross up hi jinx. Try that bazooka knee trick and you might catch a spinning lariat and the guessing game starts again. Long story short, Guile needs a more reliable anti cross up tool.

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this…makes sense

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Speaking of crouching fierce punch, yea that’s another normal that can use a boost.

Just a look at the data says it does 100 damage if it’s deep, but anyone who’s actually used the thing KNOWS you need to use it early or you risk trading or getting stuffed(atleast with sagats elbow for example). With that in mind…cr fierce does 70 damage at a realistic height, and 119 if it’s a counter hit

Ryu’s crouching fierce comes out 1 frame faster and does 100 damage from any height, 125 if it’s a counter hit and can stuff the same things if timed properly, but it needs less timing because it’s active twice as long to help against those lucky jumpins(which ryu is ironically the worst offender for)…because he needs it to be better being a charge character with 2 moves who had his anti-air nerfed,does 50 more stun too considering guile usually uses his earlier.
Wait, if you DO manage to trade, you can cause them to land in your ultra or super ofcourse, and if they manage to block your super you’d still be at a frame advantage…

Ok am i the only person who sees something wrong with this? The more you examine these things the more you find out how disgustingly broken this really is, and this is the best example right here because Guiles cr HP is supposed to be one of his best normals. I guess i don’t feel bad for thinking that cr HP should go right into sonic hurricane now, before i thought that might be too easy but this has shown me otherwise.