Capcom, The way to Strenghten Guile is

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
2721

Dee Jay had one advantage over Guile in that matchup. He could lock Guile down with his crossups but that was about it. Guile could zone Dee Jay the fuck out for free. He could also backhand punish maxouts within range. back sabot could beat dee jays sweep. Nad early cr.mk could stuff slides. Almost every normal dee jay had could be stuffed by Guile jab as well. And you could punish Dee Jay dread kick on reaction with cr.mk on reaction. Dee Jay had a few retarded jumpins. Notably his j.hk which beat Guiles d.fp. It also gave dee jay good air control making it hard to go air to air with Dee Jay. The j.hk did have one flaw though. It had too much airtime allowing Guile to airthrow badly timed j.hk.

It was as even as you could get. It was hard for dee jay to cross Guile up granted. But Guile beat him on the ground and outzoned him. He wasn’t anymore of a problem for Guile than Ryu was (an even matchup in ST)

2722

DeeJay could advance forward without sacrificing his down charge, also, DeeJay could definitely ruin Guile’s crouching MK with his crouching MK, so Guile would have to hazard a guess as to whether or not he was going to slide at him or use cr mk if he was going to press a button. The match is even from only certain positions, but Guile definitely has much fewer safe options at the range where he’s normally dominant in. DeeJay could also time a slide at that range to sweep trade sonic boom if it was in his favor. DeeJay also performs better when Guile’s in the corner, because it basically is like permanently locking Guile into that close/mid-range position. So cross up wise, super utility/combo, and footsies/options wise, that fight is not necessarily even. It’s definitely playable, but it gets dumb for Guile before DeeJay is even crossing him up. You definitely have to trust your reads and just play it sharp, because DeeJay has many opportunities to knock you down and ruin your life in that cross up game. DeeJay has the slight advantage.

2723

I’ve played this matchup a lot last year (from GGPO). Dee Jay could annoy Guile with a lot of his jumpins and crossups. But Guile could keep him zoned out with cr.mk and sonic booms. Also st.lk stuffed slide and and Dee Jays cr.mlk sweep. Also, Guile could lock down Dee Jay really well in the corner, as Dee Jay had no real panic buttons during lockdown besides reversed upkicks which were highly baitable. Also telegraphed slides were subject to j.lk crossups from Guile which normally lead to dizzy. The slight advantage you speak of was Dee Jays really meaty jump-ins and crossups. Guile really had no answer for them but to guess right. I use to really struggle with this matchup until I found that as long as I stick to a zoning game, I could beat Deejay pretty easily. It should ALSO be noted that if you know a slide is coming, you could nj.HP. It had a really low hitbox and setup some really damaging combo punishers.

Also I find it really ironic that I’m the bad guy kind of in this thread. I really am the only one umm defending Guile. Everyone else is either whining or so willing to hop on Dee Jays nutsack. Or people are starting to gripe about predicted bad matchups like Hakan (lol, what?). I mean it seems like the only popular opinion in this thread is that Guile sucks and will continue to suck. Well, guess what Guile has been sucking since SFIV was released in arcades in August 2008. People have known that since then. And even nearly 2 years later, people are still whining. You know, I was whining too but I decided to stop around May 2009 and focus on what makes the character good. Guile has a lot of tools in SFIV, and I mean a lot. He’s probably one of the most powerful low tier characters I’ve seen in any game in recent memory. So I don’t see what’s so wrong with focusing on the positives. Nothing ever gets accomplished by continously focusing on negative stuff. I mean Kich is a smart guy with a lot of knowledge, but I find it too annoying how much he’s willing to always undermine Guile. I know the Guile is weaker than other characters, but I don’t think he’s a bad character. I’ve been taking him to tournaments all year and playing against some pretty hard competition. He can win.

2724

LOL at people thinking Guile is better then Deejay at ground games.

2725

Don’t worry I can relate to you enough. I mean hell I spent 3 years maining a character that basically struggled to be mid tier in 3rd Strike. A character that more than enough people years before I started getting competitive in 3rd Strike told me to just drop her because she was toned down from her broken editions and might as well pick up another character. Though I really liked the way Ibuki played and throught she brought specific things to game and the game’s matchups that no other character did. Low and behold 3 years after I started getting competitive with Ibuki I started placing well in tournaments and eventually almost getting top 8 with her at Evo. A character with sub par damage output unless she connected a jump in, low ass health and no low normal that could confirm into huge damage. Though like Guile her footsies were basically among the best in the game and she had unique and tricky setups and resets that no other character was really capable of. She could end a match in situations where most other characters could not.

I tried to defend Ibuki as a character myself but in the end I knew she was nerfed far too hard and her top tier matchups are basically huge struggles where you have to be reading the opponent to a tee and blocking everything just to survive. Luckily Chun and Yun despite being top tier and Ibuki’s only real bad matchups had crap reversal options so I can wail on them if I knock them down and that played into my general play style. Though once those characters gained meter my options got stripped pretty hard. In the end I do wish they did a bit more to make Ibuki competitive but when they aren’t going to add to the game you just have to suck it up and use every ounce of the character possible and pray that it wins out.

You’re thinking too hard IMO if you see yourself as the “bad guy” of the thread. You’re not a bad guy you just have a specific opinion on things just like I had the opinion back in the day that Ibuki in 3S was better than people always set her out to be. Though it’s obvious she had limitations that were plain as day and the same can be said about SFIV Guile. It’s not really something you have to constantly go back and forth with people. It’s hard to change people’s opinions especially on a website where it’s real easy for them to just dead set themselves on an opinion.** Just be proud that you represent your character regardless of where they are in on the tier list even though it’s undeniable that Guile is a bit gimped and not a character that people looking to win consistently are really going to be flocking to. **

Besides…the thread title is about STRENGTHENING Guile. You’re losing the battle to protect Guile already when the theme of the thread is about making sure Guile has more than FADC glasses.

2726

I play on GGPO as well, I also fought in a living breathing tournament against Paul Wall’s DeeJay in ST Classic and HDR. I got fucked up at NEC by this guy, MarsGatti did not at Winter Brawl, though that was HDR so the dynamics have to be a bit different there. I played him in Vanilla ST. Before this gets stupid, I’m not questioning your time put in, so stop going there. That’s all anecdotal evidence and I’ve got plenty of that too, so let’s save ourselves the trouble there. Now, what I take issue with is what you’re perceiving as risk/reward for DeeJay vs risk/reward for Guile. For making a wrong guess, there are many instances where Guile gets knocked down by DeeJay and put into this “cross up” situation you speak of. Did you know that Guile can standing LK Blanka’s slide and even some of his jump ins? Do you also know how difficult it can be to coax an experienced Blanka into those ranges without being at the apex of player reactions/reads/play? There’s a reason Guile vs Blanka is considered a bad match up.

Dee Jay actually isn’t his worst match up, there are a lot of things you can do to counter DeeJay’s buttons from certain ranges, but there’s also a lot of things he can do to stop Guile from doing his thing as well. But seriously, look at what you’re saying: “Guile can do a jab against a slide or MK it’s start up!” Now look at what I’m saying:

“DeeJay can use crouching MK on Guile’s crouching MK.”

Jab does not knock down. Crouching MK for DeeJay DOES knockdown. That’s a dangerous situation to hazard a guess. Especially if you press the button at the wrong time. What if he delays his slide? What if he throws a max out? A lot of dumb what ifs. The one thing I can say for certain is “bad decision means DeeJay just knockdown Guile” “Good decision for Guile means I guess DeeJay has to try harder next time.”

Just little things like that. You can play a very patient game, but so can your opponent. It’s just a matter of time. Guile can knee bazooka O Sagat’s Tiger Shots. Now what are you going to do if he does jump HK at you? You say you’ll see it coming? Is that before or after you get in range? Right.

Theory fighter is dumb in this regard, I know experience on both sides of the world says DeeJay has a slight advantage there. What Guile gets for countering the slide is a pixel of damage. What DeeJay gets is a knockdown. Which gets him into his, as you put it, best situation of “cross up throw.” Now how this differs from Guile vs Honda is that DeeJay actually has a projectile and can distract Guile’s projectile game without huge risk. The match up is manageable, but for all these “what ifs” you list, there are a lot of just as good “what ifs” that DeeJay has in ST against Guile. It’s not the worst match up, it’s most certainly playable, but I play a very patient game as well, but it was only a matter of time in many casuals where someone could creatively get in on me. Well guessed backbreakers or not.

I don’t really care about the input on IV, I think it’s a dry game… but ST? Nothing is ever cut and dry and super manageable for Guile in that game outside of a few matches and you’re still working hard. I like that about Guile in ST, it’s fun because you gotta attack and defend wisely. I just think you’re a bit too caught up on the theory of “oh you got this.” Guile has a lot of funny geometry to his pokes in ST, but that shit isn’t easy, because even if you land it, your opponent is still in it.

2727

I must ask does Capcom really thinks Guile is weaker then Vega???

Guile sure is getting the spot light in being the weakest and gets new SSF4 info on him but no desired info on Vega :confused:

2728

Well they’ve already said some stuff about Claw. His claw stays on longer and his Ultra 2 is a low hitting attack. At least you get that. :lol:

2729

DevilJin…you maining Ibuki in Super? I know your assured she’ll be nothing like her 3S self…but using her or just waiting to get a feel for the 10 new characters, then decide where to take it?

And Branh…I’ve read just about everything you’ve written in this thread man…I get you completly. You’ve written up most of the info I won’t really write, because you put the time in to typing for people like me (though I don’t mind doing it). It’s an opinion man, type and speak what you want.

2730

Yeah I already decided Ibuki will either be my main or sub main to Viper. If Ibuki is basically a better Viper then I’ll just reserve Viper for a couple matchups and stick to Ibuki. If Ibuki falters in certain matchups then I’ll just interchange either depending on the matchup. Ibuki looks like she’ll do better in matchups that Viper struggled in since Ibuki’s footsies so far look a bit better than Viper’s. If her footsies are anything like they were in 3S she’ll be fine in IV. If they gimp her footsies then I’m picking up Dudley so I can spam 2 frame jab. :lol:

2731

Branh you already know 80% of these cats have no credibility or idea what they are saying

all we can do is wait for super.

as for the fierce nerf…all I can say is be optimistic and use logic. For them to take away damage from that, they must have given us something more to work with. I dont mean shades either.

live above the influence. take heart guile mains (dedicated), our time will come.

2732

I don’t even think DeeJay is really all that similar to Guile save for similar motions on special moves. He never struck me as a character that was about zoning, so much as a charge character with a really good cross up and easier combos/different gameplan. It would make more sense to me if Guile players switched to Sagat than if they just go to DeeJay. I think Guile is a fun character… just not in IV, but even the other character I switched to just felt wrong. I don’t really think it’s about “winning” or “competing” to me when I talk about the character, though I’m not sure I can speak for everyone. It’s been hard even in ST, but I love Guile in ST. This game is just fucking boring in comparison in my opinion, and even then they managed to distill Guile down to nearly pure defense. I don’t get any excitement on a cross up attempt because throws effectively don’t exist for some characters and “blocking > option select throw tech” in that situation.

I don’t think Dee Jay will really alleviate that for me, just not the same play style. And if he does for other players, that just goes to show that they weren’t really digging the playstyle Guile represents, which is poorly represented in IV. I mean, Fei Long players keep talking about BLAH BLAH MIX UPS BLAH MAKOTO and I just think that’s hilarious because “Have you ever played Fei Long outside of IV? Do you even understand his gameplan?” Hilarious. I don’t think you’re the badguy Branh, I just don’t agree with your opinion on a match up, but we both kept playing it good or bad, so good shit. I placed 5th at NEC in HDR if you want my Guile credentials, I don’t think what you’re saying is unreasonable, I just like ST (lol using HDR as a reference point, there was an ST classic tournament there!).

2733

I will defnitely agree that nothing is ever cut and dry for Guile in ST. He is probably the most technical version of Guile ever, and I won’t disagree there. As far as theory fighter is concerned, well I’m playing it but I’m not. A lot of stuff I speak of are things I’ve done in matches or ideas I’ve come up with myself. To be honest with you, I haven’t seen much Guile vs. Dee Jay on youtube, and I most certainly don’t study up frames and hitboxes in games. I’ve found that Guile has a lot of tools on the ground for Dee Jay, and not only that he dominates Dee Jay on the ground. I only said this matchup is even, I never said it was easy. Dee Jay is annoying and still has a lot of tools, and I’ve been crossup looped by Dee Jay more than a few times, so I understand what Dee Jay can do in the matchup. I know you’ve probably played against some really exceptional Dee Jay players, but I am having a hard time seeing how Dee Jay knocks down a Guile who spaces and zones him correctly. Yeah, better players will inevitably fiHonda will find a way to get in on O. Sagat. But overall does this really change the matchup due to the ingenuity of some players? I don’t think it does. I mean this weekend at Final Round, I saw a Gief player destroy Evil Rashan’s Seth, a matchup that is considered 9-1 by a lot of credible people. But just because a credible Gief can beat a credible Seth, does this change the matchup?

As far as Blanka is concerned, I still believe he has an advantage against Guile. However some known ST Blanka players have come forth and said that they believe it’s in Guile’s favor as no smart Guile will throw sonic booms with slide range ( the main annoyance in that match). Though honestly I still have issues with Blanka in ST, but there are some opinions that says it’s not a bad matchup.

2734

I hear you DevilJin I wanna switch mains but still keep Guile for those certain matches where I feel he straight beats in. I’m really considering heading over to the Bison camp because I feel he is more solid and maybe his new ultra will be dope as hell. I still want to try out Dee Jay, Makoto, Dudley, and Cody though. Gotta do the whole try out their BnB, combo to ultras or setups, and see how they fit my playstyle.runthrough.

2735

Almost forgot guys

I heard from a trustworthy source

and this is just a rumor… but guile got +100 hp

I was skeptical too…but the person who passed this on is reliable

2736

I mean, the assumption is that “well if Guile does everything right.” Guile players are human, I think “bad match ups” to me aren’t dissected by tournament results or win/loss. That’s stupid and short sighted, no offense to you, just my view on that outlook of match ups/player skill. If you look at risk/reward and situations that typically pop up and how often they can occur, that’s where I think you can start talking about match up difficulty. And match up difficulty does NOT equal whether or not you can win a match, I just feel it’s a good barometer for what you’re getting yourself into. I think there are a lot of situations where DeeJay’s footsies lead to knockdown, as opposed to Guile’s. Many of these situations can be achieved just by DeeJay walking forward. Walk forward block, walk forward standing LK, walk forward crouching MK, walk forward jump… Guile can backfist, but that puts his hitbox out there for a slide. Guile can low MK but that puts his hit box out there for cr mk. Guile can throw Sonic Boom, but DeeJay might slide? DeeJay might jump? DeeJay might just block and we’re back to neutral. A wrong guess means you’re on the ground. That’s the match. It’s hard. Dee Jay has a lot of chances for an advantageous situation, Guile has to take a HUGE RISK to score a knockdown and get his offense going, but it can be just as potent if he does knock down Dee Jay. These alone make me feel that Dee Jay has just a bit more things going for him, especially since his cross up game on Guile gets a lot dumber than Guile’s cross up, but as a Guile player, man you can make it work.

I think Guile is fun, keep playing him in IV if the game speaks to you. I’m only here cause you started talking about ST and I also happen to like Guile and probably shitting on SFIV a bit too much lol.

2737

Really? I heard he got a health boost…but I thought he’d have Blanka health(1050)…but I’ll take it. Now lets hear about his strength increases and pokes.

2738

holy shit, i didn’t want my question to turn into a 3 page dee jay v guile debate and be accused of “jumping on dee jays nutsack”, lol.

2739

Woooooot, eat that Deejay. haha. That’s a hell of a big boost if it were true. If guiles one frame links got converted to two frame links, hitbox improvements, and his harder matchups severely reduced, that’s a pretty damn good buff there.

I’m more suited to Guile, i always hated the wonky unorthodox feel of Deejays normals. I could adapt to him, but i feel i’ve come too far to take the easy road, especially if we got any or all of the above

2740

Branh0913 i believe i said something along the lines of fuck deejay i wanna play guile like 10 pages ago but whatever,

I think peoples main problem with your posts is it’s like you assume the guile player will play perfect 100% of the time and that is just not possible (at least this is how it comes off). your not gonna outhink blanka every time and that is the problem i have with looking at hakan like was mentioned he has a slide and a half screen tickthrow, and to me his normals look good too and if he does have a strong vortex game that will be a problem stuff like that makes me think he will be hard. i guess we will find out when super does come out. aside from that you usualy raise good points and it’s good to have someone thinking posative about guile when a lot of the thread isn’t posative because all we really have is a lack of information a concrete nerf and some ambiguas buffs we really know nothing about. and a pair of shades.

anyway i think deejay would definately be worth trying out for any guile player but i really don’t expect him to play a lot like guile. i really don’t see myself picking up a new main in super but i will totaly get some more alts.