Ryu’s sweep comes out faster than Guiles because he does karate.
“Sure i’ve been told that the size factor is obviously how capcom ranked the stamina and power of characters, I can even see the evidence for that, but i’m just too dumb to admit that anything should be changed because i don’t even play this character.” -Random clown
The only thing Guile needs is to be deleted from the roster. Replace him with Charlie, who is less of a dork. 
Dude, Guile is a medium sized character with 1000 health. Yes his stun is fucked up. But because you think he’s stronger than certain characters he should have more health. We get it. But we’re focusing on other things that he could use.
make bazooka knee and sobats have throw, low move invincibility and overheads
make any flash kick fadc combo into both air throws or any jumping air normal. you will also have the flash kick fadc dash into flash kick available.
not trying to be greedy giving him more overheads. but wont be overkill cus u can focus them so the knee bazooka and sobats will mostly be used to counter low attacks from the opponent better than they are used now.
Yes his stun is fucked up. But because you think he’s stronger than certain characters he should have more health. We get it. But we’re focusing on other things that he could use.
Guess you didn’t see the huge amount of things i listed while you were trolling, or you didn’t see the link that i posted because you were continuing to troll. I don’t get dizzied much as it is, and that’s a change that actually MAKES SENSE, but for that they could give guile something and i won’t repeat why because you won’t even understand.
Im not going to waste my time reading the 10 pages that this tread is.
No one should ever talk about in game physics and realism, they are unimportant in fighting games. Seth said it himself
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34752
Also, I like the idea of guile having a command grab. It keeps to his tradition of having 2 special moves while giving him more options in combat. Makoto ,SF3: 3rdS, had the same move and could also combo off it, I think. A rush grab when combined with FADC could be a very good counter for fireball crazy people. This move should have start-up invul, but during the run be completely vulnerable. It should do no damage on hit and not have an EX version. The only problem with this suggestion is that if you where able to ultra after it, it would become ridiculously OP(In my opinion). Even without ultra comboablity, it would still make guile a very strong character that stays close to his 2 special roots.
My suggestions for the rush grab:
Like the idea that it is a charge move
Can be followed by a super or FK
Has start-up invul
Can be normal grabed out of once the running has begun
It should have the same grab properties as Akuma’s super move
**No one should ever talk about in game physics and realism, they are unimportant in fighting games. Seth said it himself **
That’s a strawman, but because you said right before that you didn’t read what happened it’s acceptable. The bottom line is that the stamina and power rankings for characters seems to be consistant in SF4, which is why zangief has 1200 life and does alot of damage etc etc etc.
So, in order to justify something like ryu’s mk being superior to guiles mk, there would either have to be a reason that’s consistant with the logic they used there, or it’d have to be a balance issue(akuma or seth) and it’s clearly neither, so it should be changed.
That’s why we won’t see chunli hitting harder than rufus in the next version or similar things that make no sense and clearly aren’t for balance.
In fighting games you cant compare move to move(In my opinion). There are so many things that could affect how a move is made. Mby the reason the devs mad ryus cMk faster with better recovery is bc in that distance a FK beats a SRK(im prety sure it does). You cant just compare 2 things like that bc there are tons of different factors that could affect balance.
But it’s not balanced, that’s why it should be changed. Flashkick beats an SRK?
to mr. 9272
the question you should be asking is why does Ryu normals link to more things than Guile’s (more attack options). What your asking is why do Guile’s normals do less damage than Ryu that’s the wrong question. And Guile’s normals do the same damage as Ryu’s. Normal move strength is related to the moves properties (link-ability, cancel-bility, space controlling properties, move start up and speed.) By products of a move are hit box shifting properties, and hit box glitches and sometimes those hit box shifting properties make a move much more useful than other normals. And you have to realize that not all normals and specials are not made the same. There made to be balanced, but the dev cant see in the futrue and see what normals are over powered etc.
ill answer a few of your questions to
-I don’t know why EX sonic boom is the only projectile that doesn’t knock anyone down (because of its speed and ability to punish moves other fireballs cant)
-Not sure why characters who are supposed to be smaller have better reach(ryu)
(because there normals shift there hit box. look at the animation)
-Not sure why ryu or sagat can knock me out of the middle of my target combo if they block the first hit (because mk does not provide enough block stun on block)
-If ryu and sagat can pass through fireballs with their anti-airs, why can’t I? Give everyone the same advantages or take them away (EX flash kick does and its projectile speed dependent. what is it 3 frames of invul frames?)
i dunno about all this new move and juggle shit. how about better/faster normals. with only two specials, his normals should be among the best. and beef up flash kick a bit so it dosent lose to frontal/stupid/lazy jump ins. and start ultra up a little faster for anti air purposes. jumping at guile is ok in this game and that is a problem
the question you should be asking is why does Ryu normals link to more things than Guile’s
Didn’t i talk about the links? I may not have, but i did list a good many things
**What your asking is why do Guile’s normals do less damage than Ryu that’s the wrong question. **
That’s another way of saying there should be a damage buff for certain things. And about them doing the same damage, i’d say that was wrong.
Ryu’s close light does 30, guiles does 20
Ryu’s close medium does 70, guiles does 60
Close hard punch is 100(80) to guiles 100(70)
Close medium kick does 70 to guiles 60
There’s more but i don’t want to take up too much space. I know they can’t see into the future, but now that we can prove something is wrong, something should be done yes? Especially when as you said, ryu has more attack options and more special moves, more everything really, why does he need better normals? Try as i might i can’t find a justification for this so it should be fixed.
(because of its speed and ability to punish moves other fireballs cant)
And when the opponent gets hit they don’t need to worry about anything because they don’t get knocked down like they do with the other people who have more damage? This is one reason the sagat match is 7-3, if this knocked down it’d enable guile to get in easier and the matchup would improve.
(because there normals shift there hit box. look at the animation)
I haven’t heard anyone complaining about the range of ryu’s normals, but even sagats normals have range issues as i was told by emblemlord earlier today. Guile used to have better reach on his normals, like he should, because for one he depends on them, ryu doesn’t need yet another advantage, especially when we can see so many disadvantages that other characters got that mysteriously passed over him. Hitboxes need to be abit more balanced and make abit more sense really.
(because mk does not provide enough block stun on block)
So that should change yes? I take sooo much for me to knock ryu out of his cr.mk to fireball, i can’t just do it in my sleep so why can he do it so easily? That might be a safeblock thing also, but either way something needs to be done. Heh, he could even knock me into ultra when he’s supposed to be at a disadvantage, how is that balanced?
**(EX flash kick does and its projectile speed dependent. what is it 3 frames of invul frames?) **
So i only have two special moves, and both got nerfed, but i also have to use a bar to do what they can do normally while they have so many other advantages? And i think EX has 5 invincible frames.
with only two specials, his normals should be among the best.
Amen, but that doesn’t mean his specials also have to be among the worse
Comparing Guile and Ryu’s normals side to side is stupid, and clearly you’re missing the point as to why that is so. They aren’t the same. You can’t just say “This one does more damage ergo it’s better.”
Guile does -not- have the only projectile that doesn’t knock down, and what purpose exactly would that serve? It would help nubs who can’t handle pressure and need knockdowns to give them breathing room, but beyond that what would it do? Is there any point to it? No, not really. Guile has little to no wakeup pressure. If his EX Booms knocked people down, it would injure what little momentum is possible with his character by giving your opponent a breather.
Ryu has far from better normals, his normals just serve their purpose. For the most part (ie, outside of c.mk), they have poor range. Their high point is that they’re all very fast with high hit-stun which makes him able to be quite nasty up close.
That’s Ryu’s character design, he’s pretty good no matter what situation he’s in, he’s designed to be flexible.
Guile’s not flexible and he’s not a combo character, his normals all emphasize this. His important standing normals all have fantastic range, speed, and damage. And that’s their point. Obviously ryu has better normals for comboing, Ryu’s designed to combo the hell out of people or zone the hell out of them. Guile is far more comfortable at poking distance.
His standing fierce is one of the best normals in the game, his crouching fierce happens to also be one of the best normals in the game, and his forward fierce I would argue is also one of the best normals in the game. What the -hell- are you people talking about?
You can’t just stand two characters next to each other who play nothing alike and say “This one is better because of <insert arbitrary comparison>.” You’re Coke and Pepsi arguing beverage supremacy.
Important Ryu Normals:
Crouching forward
Forward fierce
Crouching strong
MAYBE List:
Forward strong
Far Standing Roundhouse
Crouching Fierce
Important Guile Normals:
Far Standing fierce (Poke)
Forward fierce (Poke)
Far Standing roundhouse (Poke / Spacing)
Forward / Back forward (Poke / spacing)
Forward / Back short (spacing)
Close Back Roundhouse (combo starter)
Crouching forward > Forward strong (target combo)
Close fierce (AA)
Crouching fierce (AA)
Close Standing Roundhouse (AA)
Close Forward (AA)
Far Standing Strong (AA)
Air Throw (AA)
Jumping Forward / Fierce / Roundhouse (Air to Air)
Jumping Short (Crossup)
And others…
So forgive me if I’m fucking dumbfounded that someone can say that Guile’s normals aren’t as good as Ryu’s. His normals are not just gateways into damage, they are tools to control space. If you don’t understand the fundamental game that is Guile, then what the hell are you doing here talking about how he needs to be better? You need to thoroughly understand how to use every single one of his many, many normals to efficiently play Guile. You do -not- need to know that to play Ryu.
You cannot, under any circumstances, compare two of their normals. They just aren’t the same.
**Actually, all of Guile’s important normals do more damage than Ryu’s important normals. **
Probably because ryu can combo his for far more damage…and that really depends on what you view as “important” because i’m pretty sure ryu uses jabs and shorts which you didn’t mention, so whatever.
That’s Ryu’s character design, he’s pretty good no matter what situation he’s in, he’s designed to be flexible.
Noone is complaining that he’s flexible, he’s always been flexible hasn’t he? Ummm so why did guile get his advantages taken away while ryu retains his original game as well as getting more advantages.
Ryu’s designed to combo the hell out of people or zone the hell out of them. Guile is far more comfortable at poking distance.
All this time everyone thought guile was a zoning character instead of having to poke someone to death with kicks that had their distance nerfed and don’t do much damage, but i guess that depends on what you think is “important”.
I know standing or back fierce is really good, that’s one normal buddy. Is the rest of his game being balanced off of one great normal? Crouch fierce is good too ofcourse, so lots of people are winning tournies off of this or does something need to change?
You can’t just stand two characters next to each other who play nothing alike and say “This one is better because of <insert arbitrary comparison.”
You might as well try to say that Guile’s ultra is better than Ryu’s because they were designed to do different things at this point. It’s more like comparing coke to mexican tap water, coke to pepsi would be saying that electricity was better than hundred hand slap.
You don’t think anything should be changed? Since guile should apparently be limited to poking and spacing, should back fierce and crouch fierce do more damage? Does he need more damage or is just everyone playing him incorrectly?
**So forgive me if I’m fucking dumbfounded that someone can say that Guile’s normals aren’t as good as Ryu’s. **
I’m really trying…Did you say this in the Guile forum too by any chance? Noone is asking for the guy to be a combo maniac like Ryu. See how sagat doesn’t have long combos but he hits really hard to make up for it? Guiles doesn’t hit hard, and he doesn’t combo, but he can poke you to death slowly…so that’s…balanced…
Ok.
What the hell is your point in quoting everyone if you’re just going to argue that Guile’s not as good as Ryu. We know this already. And why are you just comparing Guile to just Ryu, there are more characters that are better than Guile in this game. Oh yeah I forgot “Guile is physically stronger than Ryu because Ryu is only about 5’10’’ and it doesn’t make sense for his normals to have better reach.”
Guile is played a certain way. If he had Sagat’s health, reach and damage he’d be broken. It’s called balancing. Capcom is retooling everyone and Ono has specifcally addressed Guile’s shortcomings, but arguing why Ryu has better moves is retarded.
Let’s just cut this shit out, I really don’t want to read it anymore.
**If he had Sagat’s health, reach and damage he’d be broken. **
WHy are you even here? Not only did i NEVER say this but i’m the one who’s been talking about balance the entire time, you’ve been talking about whatever you can pull out of your magic hat to get offtopic.
Ryu is the charcter with no weaknesses, that’s why i’m comparing them. For every nerf guile got it’s like ryu got a buff so that newbies to streetfighter could pick him up easier. Hey if you don’t want to read that’s great, as far as i’m concerned you haven’t really been reading the entire time.
I used Sagat as an example. If you specifically said it, I’d quote it in big bold letters for you to see. Even though you’ve been comparing Guile to Ryu and Sagat.
You claim to be talking about balance by comparing Guile to Ryu because he’s decently balanced. Balrog is also decently balanced, but does it make sense for me to compare Sakura to Balrog? No. They’re not even close to similar.
We saw what you wanted for buffs and that’s fine, but just because someone goes “I think that’s unreasonable” you don’t have to reply with “BUT LOOK WHAT RYU CAN DO!”
Dude just drop it.
No, Guile’s ultra is not better because his ultra fails to serve any sort of legitimate purpose. Guile’s normals all serve their purposes, they all serve them very well in fact, as do Ryu’s, and to that end I feel that Guile’s are still better.
You seem to be misunderstanding me and simultaneously making yourself look like a jackass. I’m not saying Ryu isn’t a better character; he is. It’d be tough to argue he isn’t. But his normals are not on the level of Guile’s. Guile’s far standing fierce punch makes up for any bad normal he has and then some. Guile’s normals outside of his High Kick are great and should barely be touched if at all.
What he needs is an overhaul to his ultra (which he’s getting) and fixes to the way his flash kick works as it’s far too easily stuffed unless you’re dropping a deep-ass EX.fk on them.
He’s very close to being extremely solid, but the limitations he has on his Ultra and Flash Kick holds him back tremendously. Ultra’s were designed in such a way (outside of throws) that people could combo into them. The entire line of hard trials for those without throw-ultras imo proves this as they’re all designed to teach you obscure ways of landing it. Guile, unlike those characters, has no real option to land it. Compared to characters that can land theirs with relative ease this puts him at a disadvantage, especially because it doesn’t do very much damage.
At least Ryu’s ultra, while being outrageously easy to connect, is the least damaging ultra in the game. Guile’s being one of the hardest, doesn’t produce the result one would expect from the level of difficulty in finding a way to use it. The best I’ve found is an early AA LK Flash Kick (hitting them at the peak of their jump) and juggling into ultra. This does 400 damage. Guile’s ultra loses around 200 damage if done as an anti-air.
Changes need to be made, but his normals are far from his primary issues. If anything, they’re all that holds him together.
You never said you think that’s unreasonable, more importantly up till now you’ve never said WHY any of that was unreasonable, you just introduce red-herrings,strawmen and never really go anywhere.
I can quote all the times i asked you these questions so many tiems and you ran if you want, that’s something that was actually said. Balrog doesn’t really have anything that doesn’t make any sense and sakura is a damn hard charcter to balance, atleast take charcters that are somewhat similar.
For example, saying that um…T-hawk should have a way to get inside like zangief does makes sense. Saying that Zangief should be able to juggle to ultra because rufus can doesn’t make sense.
You seem to be misunderstanding me and simultaneously making yourself look like a jackass. I’m not saying Ryu isn’t a better character; he is. It’d be tough to argue he isn’t. But his normals are not on the level of Guile’s.
Sweet irony, you have any evidence?
At least Ryu’s ultra, while being outrageously easy to connect, is the least damaging ultra in the game
I don’t know if you’re going from actual game experience, people actually care when they get hit by ryus ultra,how about vegas or sakuras? You just went on about how i shouldn’t look at a paper and say that something is superior and then you say something like this…
**Changes need to be made, but his normals are far from his primary issues. If anything, they’re all that holds him together. **
It’s funny because there wasn’t much else for them to nerf, so obviously they nerfed his normals. I agree he’s pretty close to being solid, they actually only need to give him a handful of things mentioned in the guile forum and here, but the normals need improvement since he doesn’t have much else to rely on.
Unless you’re just a superior poker that can outfootsy ryu and anyone else any day of the week. Now that i think of it, it’s like you think Guile is the next blanka.