the moment i saw this thread started i knew that it was gonna go into JRPG’s vs WRPG’s
this is like the 3rd thread i’ve seen on it, it’s a hot button issue on this forum
This plays directly into I Am Lothar’s rebuttal. Your “should” is a fallcy: just because people, no matter how numerous, settle for mediocrity doesn’t mean it’s okay to be mediocre. If it were, every game developer and publisher would follow the same philosophy as the guys that made Agarest War: maximum tits/legs and minimum effort on everything else. But they don’t.
I demonstrated why Bungie actually gives a fuck. They’re not the only ones. Nintendo found a license to print money, which I must admit true regardless of how much the Wii aggravates me. But Nintendo didn’t just pump out another Mario Galaxy: they took the time to make sure the levels worked, the gameplay felt solid, and the experience was worth the money they charged.
Baloney. This is the core of your straw man, right here: asking for a better Final Fantasy is NOT asking for it to be made like Grand Theft Auto, Halo, or any other franchise commonly associated with quality. It’s asking for a BETTER Final Fantasy, and not anything else. “But Final Fantasy isn’t GTA” is a straw man, through and through. It’s like asking for a better Halo campaign doesn’t mean turning Halo into an RPG: it means Bungie thought about how to make the campaign more engaging, and improved the Halo 3 approach for ODST, and again for Reach.
It’s the same argument the “executionists” use to defend unnecessarily difficult execution in fighting games: yeah, some moves have relative power that demands something more than a QCF, but many moves don’t need the motions they have, and easing up the execution requirements does not cheapen a game.
Nonsense. Konami realizes the formula’s grown stale: that’s why, when MercuryStream pitched a new direction for Castlevania, Konami jumped aboard. Many developers realized there was still a market for 2D games, which is why we’re seeing a new 2D Kirby, a new 2D Donkey Kong Country, and why we saw Megaman 9 and 10. These devs didn’t just go “well, we have a niche market of people who’ll buy anything with our branding on it, so let’s just never change.” That’s a recipe for failure.
Gamers themselves need to grow. If a person is happy with stagnation, that person is missing an opportunity for growth. If more gamers started actually thinking about what they play, you’d see less of the “well, in my opinion game X is awesome, so game X is awesome” and more of “well, I enjoy game X, but I see its failings, which doesn’t diminish my enjoyment for game X but does make me seek out other games that address those failings in the future.”
Dr. B ninja edited this for me. Five minutes before I posted it. From SPACE.
The only thing that pisses me off about Japanese Game Companies is that they market too much on handhelds!
I want Gundam vs Gundam for home console!!!
Can’t comment on Agarest war but I definietly can on the rest. You attacked how I wrote but not the main arguement which is that YOU are no longer satisfied with this series and the way it is designed. You find that they can do better but they do not change things. This means that YOU (and the rest of the people who complain about the gameplay/story/design etc in the FF series) are no longer being satisfied by this product or are no longer part of the demographic targeted. If you do not like a linear game that does not let you make decisions that affect the outcome of the game and that will be relatively easy difficulty wise, the Final Fantasy series is not made for you. Turn based RPGs were stale halfway through the SNES and well into the PS1 era; it just so happened that many people still found a lot of satisfaction in the gameplay they provided and that particular market keeps them afloat. Now sure, they could be doing it better, but they obviously do not need to do much to the formula in order to keep making money.
Taken from the article “?They?re asking, how can we work together to create something that works globally??” Some of the companies are becoming obviously aware that the style of games they are making are not fulfilling some of the needs in the rest of the planet’s gaming wants. This more than anything points toward the change of sensibilities I mentioned above.
Nintendo managed to cater to your wants; but it does not address why is it that JRPGs need to change as opposed to just going back and exploring different game styles. If a company is making bad games, or enganging in practices that you do not enjoy, do not spend money on them. This is a hobby; it ain’t like you are living next to a Wal-mart and the next supermarket is 40 miles away. This is all leisure spending. If companies want to continue putting JRPGs on the market that no longer have gameplay that you would enjoy, nor are they taking the quality control efforts of Nintendo or Bungie, you are not required to support them. By the same token, if you support them it is because there is something you want out of that experience. I will keep reiterating this point because it is central to the article and the main problem you guys have: the people who used to make games you liked no longer are. Quit supporting the fuckers. We can intelligently discuss why their games are not working but a lot large chunk of the problem is that their main markets have shifted significantly and they haven’t.
I’ll get the rest of it tomorrow; sleepy.
Shin Megami Tensei and it’s spin-offs say hi.
So you fail to make any good points at all and call me a idiot? LOL you fail so hard, even at your trolling.
stay free
btw, i haven’t played a good western rpg since planscape torment. and that game came out over a decade ago. WRPG’s biggest problem imo is that most of the games can’t capture emotion like JRPG can. like look at a FFXIII scene or even kh2 scene. watch how the characters display raw emotion, then look at a scene from masss effect when the characters are devoided of emotion. without that, it’s very hard to get into the story or characters. plus WRPGS have hella technical issues ( look at fallout or mass effect).
what’s hilarious about the sensibilities of both sides is the fact you are neglecting the core facts.
developers in europe make games according to what the public want’s, developers in japan make games that japanese public want. what the japanese public want is something similar to popular culture which includes a lot of american/european influences.
I think european game makers have a slight advantage since all the games they make are very familiar so it’s less weird or goofy for westerners to pick it up, not to mention how many western games are made where they rely on a white male to be the protagonist, it’s really sickening to see american game deveopers whoring out the white male image in super ethnic degrading formulaic which in it’s self is going against everything that america stands for, and no im not including european developers because they aren’t america, they don’t have that luxurious ability to flip trends.
I see innovation as something that changes how we view things, the japanese are successful because they rely on gameplay systems, and they thrive on improving those systems. what cool systems have the west made that’s pulled us into the game? call of duty is a fantastic game till you realise that it won’t get any better than that gameplay wise unless they make a gigantic overhaul in the graphics coupled with a world wide conditioning on gameplay understanding.
japanese game makers have hit a wall, they got ass raped by game players telling them how to make a fighting game, which is similar to asking what a spoilt child want’s for dinner every day. adventure games have turned into indiana jones knock offs. RPG’s have turned into anime fests. it’s all gotten so bad that they had to create a console that has flipped our conciousness back to 1983 gameplaywise with an added cheer leader batton to distract us.
the way to get this thread back on track would be a list of INNOVATIVE games and why they are innovative. how can a discussion evolve from nothing
Halo Wars is an RTS ass hat. Your taking a series thats been aroundf for 9 years and compparing it to a series with close to 30 years under it’s belt. Stop it.
I’m pretty sure it’s actually the other way around. You need to chill out because you’re calling people trolls and can’t even argue your point without doing so. Again, since when is having a different opinion considered trolling? Specs means what he is saying. He isn’t posting to bait people.
If people can’t keep it civil then I’m just going to close this thread.
Your halo knowledge is low,
Halo has been books, games (RTS), animes, games and a actually comedy. In game halo has so a platforming, a starfox type level as well as racing.
Halo is not your average fps, and thats why its fan base is so high. If your just watching “high end gameplay” or tournament videos or casually playing with friends then sure it probably seems like every other fps.
Its not a upgrade pack every yet like alot of other FPS that are being released yearly now.
I’m not saying the majority opinion is always right but you do realize you’re more then likely the only one on all of SRK who thinks this, just go look in the ff thread to see what die hard fans think, and it’s not just them either on countless other forums people have to put it mildly complained about how emotionally distancing ff13 is, also just about every review says it too.
When the vast majority of fans as well as reviewers say a game has horribly stiff animation and a ridiculous plot which insults the intelligence of anyone who plays it by beating us over the head with obvious character arcs then there is a problem. Regardless of whether someone likes Mass Effect or not the one point beyond contention is that at the very least it’s character animation, conversation system, and voice acting all combine to create more plausible character arcs then anything ff13 has to offer. Also because of how overt and hasty the catharsis of the characters in ff13 are any logical person should be inclined to believe that anyone who considers it acceptable either has very low standards or is in denial that their precious franchise has a fault.
Yes wprg’s have more bugs then most jrpgs but to state that without noting how wrpgs are usually much more ambitious in scale (bigger worlds, more detailed graphics, more npc’s, more scripted events, more dialog, more mechanical variety, etc) is ignorant. I’m not trying to antagonize anyone however in this thread those in the jrpg camp don’t seem to have the ability to or want to use logic and sound reason to anchor their positions (not to say that if you’re a a bigger fan of wrpg’s that makes you a beacon of intelligence but this thread shows quite a descrepency in thought process.)
No one (with any brains) is saying wrpgs or jrpgs are definitvely better, only that modern jrpgs are in fact so similar to previous ones that they serve as blatant examples of how jrpg developers stubbornly cling to out dated design and that the japanese market is as stubborn unable to accept anything different then what they’ve been given for the past 20 years. Compare that to wrpg develoeprs who’re much more willing to shed the old for something new and can adapt to changing demands.
Just about everyone fan or not of the ff series hates 13 for various reasons and I think it’s indicative that in the U.S. at least consumers won’t be so receptive to jrpgs in the future if developers continue to be unwilling or unable to change. No franchise in history has had consistent success critically and commercially without being able to change at least somewhat to fit the current consumer climate. Look at Tony Hawk it’s not that their games got worse we just got sick of literally the same damn thing over and over again, look at Madden fans get pissed off at getting barely more then roster updates so EA Tiburon tweaks it’s formula with at least 1 game changing mechanic every year. God knows how many SRK’ers complained about re4 being too similar to 4 lol.
GI’s review of Bayonetta sums up my feelings perfectly, they said something like: “it’s a great game but it pushes the ridiculous action genre as far as it can go and if the next one doesn’t go in a new direction then no one other then fanboys will enjoy it nearly as much as they enjoyed Bayonetta.”
I would agree with this sentiment except I think FF 13 was a terrible example. Sure, the characters face’s were animated, but the whole story was shit because the characters were weak. I was not connected to that story at all and it was a complete waste of time to play. I know I’m not the only one that feels this way.
I do see your point though as far as some of the older JRPGs are concerned. As far as new games…I played Demon Souls, which I consider WRPG NOT JRPG, I think it’s a great game, but there’s no emotion at all…and I’m not playing it for the emotion. I fully realize going into that because it is the style of a western rpg, that story will take a back seat to gameplay. It’s not an attack on the western rpg style, it’s just a description.
But yeah, the problem is I’m used to playing rpgs for the story.
If I wanted a story from a western game, I wouldn’t play an RPG, I’d play an action adventure game such as Uncharted 2…although I guess that game can qualify as a 3rd person shooter as well. Heavy Rain, another action adventure game hooked me in from the start and I could not put the game down.
Hell even FPS games like Half Life 2 have a good story and this game doesn’t have cut scenes, the in game dialog, ambience, and music tell the story.
But western RPGS and story? Naw they’re more about character customization, not story or emotional connection. In the case of Fallout 3, another western RPG, I play it not for story. I play that game for…wait for it…VATS!
Unfortunately, I haven’t played through Mass Effect 2, supposedly the king of western rpgs and good story telling, so I can’t comment on that game. I tried it, but I generally don’t like Sci Fi stuff and I was completely lost playing it since I hadn’t played ME 1.
The people arguing that jRPGs stayed the same I think are missing the point.
The console ones have NOT stayed the same. They introduce CG, voice acting, bad plots and needlessly convoluted (and poor) combat and gameplay mechanics. The problem is all the new additions are terrible. As I’ve posted before, I prefer getting the same mechanics over and over and similar everything else because I LIKED the old formula. It’s why DQ IX still does so well and people like it so much. It’s why Chrono Trigger re-releases work so well. Those are good games, the core formula is good.
It’s like fighting games, the core 2d mechanics for good games stayed the same for years. We still play them and don’t want a total wholesale (bad) change and the disappearance of all the old mechanics. Some people like 3d but that doesn’t mean all the 2d fans want their games to turn 3d and fundamentally shift in gameplay (plus nobody wants the stupid long cutscenes and awful voice acting that jRPGS love so much).
Jap devs either are in denial about this or simply do not care. How did Vesperia, LO and Blue Dragon sell? What about DQ IX on hand held? Pokemon on hand held? Those are all games that have the traditional formulas. Unfortunately it’s been very scarce on console, and hand held was always a different beast altogether.
Why did they stop making the good games? Where is the next Fire Emblem on hand held too? It’s like Japan just suddenly decided “No more traditional RPGs on console for you, especially you US heathens!” I would buy the arguments more that the genre is stale and needs a change if the games were actually released following the formula but they simply are not. If you don’t like the traditional jRPG formula you shouldn’t be playing them anyway.
But for me, and I suspect a lot of others, it’s a formula we love and the problem is we don’t get it. There’s no way yo can tell me that Last Remnant, IU, SO4 and FF XIII follow the traditional formula, but those are the only games SE has released for console for the past few years. Outside of that the only jRPG I remember in the last few years on console is Magna Carta 2, which was a solid game and which wasn’t menu driven anyway—it introduced the innovations of WRPG quest system and an action based combat system but just didn’t suck. SE misses the boat completely. Konami also is bad since Suikoden IV and V were both pretty trashy, but I think that series is completely finished too and it’s been years since the last release anyway.
The only real western “innovations” that JRPGs need aren’t necessarily even western, they were in jrpgs but just haven’t been widely adopted. jRPGS should be save-able at any point rather than in pre-determined spots that might be very far apart (SO4 was really bad about this). This save feature has been in games before, including Shining Force, Lunar and a few others, but it should be in every single one of them. A quest system/navigation system also isn’t a terrible idea, although it’s not totally necessary and again has been in games before as well, although not to the extent of a Fable and Fallout type navigation system, which isn’t a bad idea to implement. Giving the player maps is a good idea too, most jrpgs had them for the world map and many had them for dungeon levels too, but they should be widely implemented.
The major problem is that instead of implementing those changes, these dumb devs see CG scenes, voice acting, etc. and think that is what they should adopt, but they adopt it so poorly too. Or they see point and shoot/FPS and think that’s the only combat mechanic, or they see DMC and think RPGs should all be hack and slash style. No, those are all terrible changes. RPGs are supposed to be like books, and I should be able to progress through things at the speed I want to. That means if I read quickly I shouldn’t be punished and forced to sit through it. In WRPGS generally you can skip through voice acting and even walk away when people are talking. WRPGS simply do not have 10 minute cut scenes every 5 minutes of gameplay where they speak very slowly, nod their heads and do wild hand gestures, and sound absolutely awful, and the scenes can not be sped up in any way whatsoever. But that is a STAPLE of the SE “JRPGS” now. And I can’t believe more people aren’t pissed about it other than me.
I absolute LOVE jRPGs and have played a very large amount of the US translated ones, and even some fan translated games for SNES, Genesis and GBA. I no longer look for translations now, but I guess I might have to. It was a great system defining genre in the past. For the most part I remembered consoles for their RPGs and would replay those RPGs occasionally. I suppose maybe I should be doing that again rather than playing new ones or hoping for any good ones on a console, as unless I can find translation patches, it just won’t happen on a console.
My love for the genre hasn’t died at all and I’d get the games, but the games themselves have betrayed me.
Demon’s Souls is a good example of an RPG that has tried to bring some innovation to the genre. The multiplayer, in particular, is what I found to be truly unique for that game. From Software somehow managed to incorporate various multiplayer aspects (such as leaving messages to help other players, summoning other players to help defeat bosses, invading other players’ games to kill them, etc.) while keeping it largely a single-player RPG. An amazing japanese-developed RPG, and probably one of the best RPGs that have come out this console generation.
Valkyria Chronicles is another example that there are still good JRPGs. The gameplay somehow managed to mesh old school tactical RPG combat with a bit of TPS.
The Persona series show that Japanese developers also strive for character development and plot. Very much like Bioware games, the Persona series focus heavily on social interactions. And while I do enjoy the hell out of Bioware games, let’s be honest, many of their games have similar plot themes concerning a main character who finds out that he’s special and joins a special group (e.g., Jedi for KoToR, Spectres for Mass Effect, Grey Wardens for DA:O), meets several companions along the way, and then defeats an ancient evil (e.g., Sith for KoToR, Reapers for Mass Effect, Darkspawn for DA:O). In Persona games, you have people taking a gun-like instrument and shooting themselves in the head, trying to solve psychological murder mysteries, and so on.
I think far too many people have a narrow view of what JRPGs are. If you look at most of the negative comments concerning JRPGs in this thread, it’s mostly people bringing up the biggest and most popular JRPG franchises (i.e., FF, DQ, Tales, Mario, Star Ocean, etc.). From what I’ve read in this thread, very few have mentioned Demon’s Souls, Valkyria Chronicles, SMT and Persona games, Disgaea (the games are straight-up comedy) and so on. In addition, a large amount of the good JRPGs have gone portable (in line with the gaming culture shift in Japan from home consoles to portable consoles), such as Monster Hunter series, Jeanne D’Arc, Half-Minute Hero, The World Ends with You, and so on.
In the end, I dig games from both Western developers and Japanese developers. Both developers have created some truly amazing games, while at the same time, both have created some truly terrible ones.
That’s one series, I hope you realize. A few great games hardly justifies the mountains of shitty JRPGs that exist.
The amount of truly shitty JRPGs that exist are no greater than the amount of truly shitty games that exist in any genre.
Persona 3 is indeed a really good game although repetition does tend to set in, the HS sim part was actually better then I expected but does get old after awhile.
Disgaea is an amazing game, Disgaea 2 wasn’t as good but solid I hated the third one.
Gaming in GENERAL has gone to shit, and is why I don’t really do it anymore other than Fighting and Puzzle games.
I really want the JPN market to churn out better things, because I feel screwed being a Western consumer, yet not liking the FPS or Sports genre at all. But they haven’t been keeping up either.