And then, like I said, it would have been a matter of time before people started crying for updates and new characters.
Look at Marvel.
I dont remember people crying for a new Marvel 3 update, but I do remember them crying that a new update came out so soon.
People started crying for an update to Ultimate as soon as 6 months after the game came out.
You’re right about the initial complaints abut Ultimate, though, which is why SFxT went the DLC update route.
But, again, people still complained.
I straight up blame Capcom’s own practices for that.
You keep dropping updates every 10 months like it is candy for your releases people expect/demand them and another percentage starts to believe that they are buying inferior/incomplete products that will be patched down the line. The company has been doing it since the original SF2 and have done it on more then one of their premier franchises. And with SFxT, they fucked up trying to hype the late Vita version announcing before the console version’s release it would have “exclusive” characters that might be later put on the console as DLC, leading to the backlash when it was discovered said characters were already on the console disc. It is a vicious selfish cycle trying to address fan complaints but half of the stuff probably could have been avoided if the games had been tested out before full release at arcades or even select beta demos.
Fans complaining isn’t what hurt Capcom, Square Enix or any major publisher, it is the industry plague of trying to be AAA or on the same level as the likes of FIFA/Madden or Call of Duty or GTA with western audiences which lead to bloated development budgets, which leads to trying to make DLC to gouge players and other general failures such as abandoning promoting new IPs that ultimately alienate their core fanbases.
DLC isn’t a bad thing, neither is listening to your fans or trying new development teams or game features with established franchises. But at some point developers/publishers must know where to draw lines and not test their fanbase with experiments clearly meant to get them more money out of the fan that buys it either day one or 14 months after the original release date and focus on building the best game play experience possible.
…when I see shit like this, does this even mean anything? The idea that a company shouldn’t attempt to develop a new entry of an IP simply because of the series’/genre/company’s legacy would somehow be affected…is so dumb and backwards. So? And? I thought game companies were in the business of making videogames, and we were in the business of playing them. I wasn’t aware there was an arbitrary reputation system that should be upheld.
It’s simply because people can’t accept change, especially fighting game players.
To them, every fighting game that comes out has to be like Super Turbo, MVC2, or Tekken 5.
They complain about games getting stale, yet they enforce that very same concept every time they bitch and moan about a new entry in a series.
RE4 is in my top 25 favorite games of all time.
I hated 5.
I did not buy 6.
If 7 doesn’t go back to the series’s roots, I won’t buy it either.
You cannot take away what makes a series’s identity, murder it, then butt-fuck its corpse publically for several years, and expect to maintain fan loyalty.
I don’t think Deep Down is gonna wow critics or move numbers.
The problem is not the games, it’s the way they distribute them. Having true endings, colors and dip switches behind paywalls. I’m not the biggest supported of DLC but the way Capcom handles their DLC makes me hate it even more. In most cases DLC can be great but Capcom has taken advantage of it by withholding finished on disc content.
i’ve seen this change argument numerous times for fighters and its same thing every time. People are not afraid of change that makes sense. Like if I were to say, you should chop your dick off because it technically IS a change in your life and if you neglect this change, you can’t accept change yourself!!
the change has to make sense. As mentioned above, chopping your dick off makes no sense so who would option for that change? sf4\umvc3 implementing comeback mechanics and everything else bad about it = a shit game a high level thus the incredibly low sales numbers compared to mvc2\sf2. None of the previous scene wanted to play games like that.
give us good change. Change the net-code so we can thrive online like FPS\RTS and have leagues. Change the constant hand holding of bad players in fighters which in turn gives us bad mechanics in the games we love. Change it so that they make good games regardless of target audience. People will accept change if its for the better. They will never accept it if its for the worse.
imo, part of the reason Capcom is here is for 2 reasons. 1, listening to the retards on Capcom Unity. You can’t please\listen to any of those retards. 2, not jumping on the internet competition band wagon in the early 2000’s and even going to 2014, only 1 of their current tournament games uses a net-code deemed acceptable by the tournament community. The FPS\RTS markets all have a staple online scene and here we are close to 2014 and 1\3 tourney fighters from capcom has caught up to 10+ year old technology. If Capcom\Japan\Fighters in general got in with the online video game boom in the early 2000s, who knows where they would be financially. Going into that era of FPS\RTS, the FGC already had a target audience and a dedicated player base where as the FPS\RTS genre’s were just starting to build up theirs. There is no reason for us to be here and other genres are 10 years ahead of us when the FGC was there first. Not jumping into the online world like the other genres did is possibly the last nail in the coffin for capcom fighters.
look at how lucrative\big the FPS\RTS markets are now after utilizing online competition 10 years ago. Take away online multiplayer from EVERY fps\rts game and they will be 10x smaller than the FGC. Could we have been 10x bigger than they are now if Capcom\Fighters took that leap and actually did it right 10 years ago? me thinks yes
OK, but what is the exact definition of the series’ roots?
Survival horror doesn’t have one static definition.
RE6 had a good idea, it was just executed poorly.
The whole “Alone in the dark” thing is a form of survival horror.
Being on a mission while your squad gets picked off one by one is a form of survival horror.
Having to constantly run from something that’s trying to kill you is a form of survival horror.
How many games do we need with tank controls and mindlessly slow zombies?
You make good points in some cases, and bad points in others.
I completely agree with you on the netcode issue. The problem is Capcom Japan seems to forget that America doesn’t have the same online infrastructure as they do.
The whole “let’s take away comeback mechanics and make the games like they USED to be” thing, however, isn’t going to work.
What you’re somewhat suggesting is “kick the casuals OUT!”, and that’s a surefire way to not make money. If you alienate the newcomers and casual players, you make less money, you have less people playing, and then you end up back in the pre-EVO days where you’re grateful to have 60 people show up to a tourney, which in turn hurts the tournament scene.
While I believe that more fighting games should implement in-depth tutorials for their fighters, comeback mechanics (when done right) give games their own unique flavor, as well as giving some players a helping hand. As long as they aren’t an instant win button (no, XF isn’t, no matter how some of you try to complain), then there’s nothing wrong with them. Nobody complained when ST added a Super meter, and that’s one of the first forms of a comeback mechanic.
As far as sales numbers go, they’re GOING to be lower than their prequels simply because their prequels had the benefit of being released on arcades and multiple systems. MVC2 alone saw releases on Arcade, Dreamcast, Xbox, PS2, PS3, and 360. SF2 had even more than that, and that’s including all of its iterations. Also, people with your mentality are, sad to say, in the minority, so they didn’t really make an impact in sales.
As much as some of you don’t like them, these games are selling, and more people are picking them up every day. Look at how many topics there are on here and GameFAQs (inb4lolGameFAQs) that have new players asking how they can get into these games. The reason why they seem to be selling less is because of A) Capcom’s silly sales goals, and B) The economy.
While Capcom could use some fixing up in certain areas, they’re not about to go out of business any time soon.
I never understood that mentality either. If the new entry of an IP ends up disappointing that doesn’t make the earlier entries go away. Onimusha 1 & 3 are always be there.
I don’t care for roots and shit I care for games that are fun to play.
I’ve played every Resident Evil main title so far and I gotta say Resident Evil 4 was the last game in the series that I bothered to play and beat the mercenary scenarios, because after the main game, I didn’t have enough of RE4 yet.
Was so much fun, I had to keep playing that shit.
RE5 on the other hand, I haven’t even beaten the 3rd level, yet because it bored me to death but I kept it because maybe I’ll play through with my gf one day.
RE6 I downloaded first because I already lost faith after RE5 and I deleted it without buying because it sucks so fucking hard.
Rather replay Silent Hill 1-3 than bothering with RE at this point…
Btw. Code Veronica sucked, too.
Oh God, the sheer amount of things wrong with Resident Evil 5.
I could nitpick a lot of them, but it ultimately boils down to 2 things.
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In the latter half of the game, your number 1 cause of death against zombies is getting gunned down. By zombies. In a Resident Evil game. I know about the Las Plagas thing, but they’re pretty much just people that look odd and can’t talk at this point instead of zombies and monsters.
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The FUCKING ENDING. Seriously, for being the end of the Wesker saga they had one simple and obvious thing to do that had been built up since 1996, with the whole thing being Chris and Jill vs Wesker. Chris and JILL are in the helicopter at the end. There are TWO Rocket Launchers, yet Chris and FUCKING SHEVA fire the damn rockets with Jill being RIGHT THERE. I know some people think it’s a little thing, but seriously, Sheva has no fucking connection to Wesker. She hasn’t gone through everything involving him like Chris and Jill have, and with the Wesker Saga ending, even a 10 year old could see that Chris and Jill killing Wesker was the most rewarding, satisfying, and conclusive way to do it. Sheva had no damn right to be firing that rocket and acting like she was getting revenge.
I hate that exclusionary elitism bullshit.
Just because modern fighting games aren’t needlessly tedious to learn they get labeled “dumbed down” (many games of many genres get this label unfairly as well. DmC ). If that is dumbing things down then by all means dumb it the fuck down.
Why?
As a Tekken player I can tell you our community is hurt CONSTANTLY by Tekken being so complicated and hard to learn. I’m okay with it, but at such a high learning curve…if you try to get into Tekken you will be lost for 6 months at least before you’re good enough to be shitty. This turns newcomers off to it.
Perfect example of a game that gets labeled unfairly is Marvel. Sure there are things that simple minded, low execution players can pull off to make them feel good. If YOU are THAT good, that you’re turning your nose up, then you should be able to dominate, right? Not evening in Marvel is easy to do. Try using Jill effectively, or Spidey webthrow combos…it’s not all herp derp.
You can’t honestly believe that DMC of all games is tedious or difficult to get into. Unless you have never played anything of the series before and jumped right into Dante Must Die (which is impossible), it’s REALLY not going to be that difficult. Sure, you’re not going to be great at the game or doing the jump cancels, charge shots, style cancels, table hops, Royal Guards, and just frames, but you can still play and beat the game just fine. Hell, getting better at the game is the replay value, a reason to go back and play it again. That’s what makes action games so fun and enjoyable. DmC on the other hand was incredibly shallow, had repetitive boring level design, questionable character designs, bad writing, and a shit camera. It was dumbed down in the sense that you never really had to think about how you were attacking, because every enemy was the same thing (until you get to the enemies where you need to use Angel or Demon power to kill, which still didn’t change anything because the enemies still did the same shit as everyone else). It was dumbed down in the worst way possible, where the AI was terrible and never made you react to anything and forcibly change how you played the game. It was a God of War style game with a DmC coat of paint. If there was any game that got treated unfairly, DmC was not it.
Similarly, a lot of fighting games have been dumbed down to allow a more casual audience to play the game, but at the cost of depth and quality. You know what game got dumbed down this generation compared to the rest of the series? You could probably say all of them and not be lying, but the one game that I’m going to mention is King of Fighters XIII. Now, I love KoFXIII and I don’t think the dumbing down makes it a bad game, but it did tangibly get dumbed down in a bad way. How you might ask? Well very simple: All anti airs that are not EX are almost not worth doing because the risk/reward via damage has skewed so heavily that I can anti air you 10 times in a row and do half the damage you’ll get from a single jump in combo, meaning I have no tangible way of stopping you from jumping because there’s nothing I can do short of K` HD bypass into kill combo that would scare you from jumping. On top of this, jumping normals, most notably j.D and j.CD, have been made faster and given better hitboxes, so even a correct anti air read might trade, whiff, or even worse, lose. Far normals have had hitbox nerfs like Ralf far C, or have been made slower, like Takuma far C, that have made the midrange poking game incredibly shallow and overall weaker, which leads to the “Neutral Playstyle Gradient” heavily skewed to the both extremes of either all out rush down or all out keepaway. HD is also a million and a half problems in itself, it’s almost pointless to talk about it since it’s so obvious.
I’ll say again, I like KoFXIII, it is my main tournament game at the moment, but the dumbing down has not done ANYTHING positive for the game in terms of depth or quality. What you end up with is a very jump and hop heavy game with a limited neutral and not so great poking where stray hits are lucky to do 7% damage and a crouching light from midscreen will kill you. There’s a difference between less tedious and less depth. Half of the depth and tedious learning from older games came from YEARS of meta evolving and coming up with tech that over time made them very complex and hard to learn games, but now that we’ve seen how those games have turned out what we’re seeing is developers go for a sterilizing development style that tries to minimize what casual players complained about, but in doing so they’re eliminating some of the depth that existed in those titles as well, not by removing unblockables and near impossible to escape throw setups, but by making bare essential fundamental options less potent in hopes that you stop everything else from happening. When someone says a game is dumbed down, they don’t mean “Oh no, I can’t do this really hard to do setup that makes me win the game unless you spend a year learning frame data and hitbox charts,” they mean that the game doesn’t require as much thought because the fundamental options that should exist are bad or not as strong. There’s less to think about, less to be afraid of, less to deter your opponent from doing something stupid. Being able to do stupid things doesn’t make a game stupid. Being unable to make someone else stop doing stupid things makes it stupid.
DmC was an unnecessary shitfest.
Dunno what they were thinking.
There was nothing wrong with Devil May Cry, so why outsource it and make a piece of shit out of it?
Same goes for Resident Evil
RE4 was a huge success and then they proceed to make the next 2 games everything but not like RE4.
Like…
WHAT THE FUCK?
fighters are not overly complex, look at starcraft. Even starcraft 2 is more complex than pretty much any fighter due to sheer amount of options and possibilities YET they out sell umvc3 by what like 4 million+ units sold?
So you can check fighters are too hard off the list which they really aren’t by comparison to other games MORE people actually play. That’s some horse meat
The reason lolinb4gamefaqs peeps have a hard time getting into fighters is 1 reason and 1 reason only, the fucking net-code is assssssss for most of our genre. See the thing that draws in players to RTS\FPS is that if they have the internet with a good connection and some free time to learn, they can learn to play as good as most pros simply through online.
For a fighting game player to be that good in umvc3, you pretty much have to take an offline approach and meet up with people in your area IF you have said players to play against. Its infinitely less accessible because players can’t play online and learn how to get good. Getting up with locals in your area, practicing offline and then attending tournaments to “learn” how to play is such a huge commitment compared to turning on your PC and joining a game of FPS\RTS that you can actually hone your skills on from home at random times.
The nature of the BIGGEST e-sports is the online process and we don’t have that and our numbers by comparison show that. While EVO does get bigger every year, its a FAR CRY from actual e-sport numbers and payouts.
not caring about the casual market isnt elitism, I don’t want them to cater to the “elitist” market if such a thing exists. What I want fighting game developers to cater to is what creates good games because that will create good games people will play. Catering to one or the other will only create an ideological game based on that perspective. Its not rocket science and that should be fairly obvious.
If catering to casuals is the all mighty savior to fighters, why in the holy fuck aren’t umvc3\sf4 and nintendo raking in the dough when RTS games, infinitely more complex, are making more money by catering towards the more serious players? your opinions are contradicting very simple facts and that’s fine as long as you’re aware of that
Well that…was wrong as shit. I’ll have to revisit this because I have to be up early, but I swear SRK GD lives in some bizarro world that does in no way reflect reality…
Brilliant retort.
JohnGrimm is actually right. If you make fundamental parts of the fighting games weaker in favor of dumb shit, casuals will feel like they are having less success at a low level, which may drive them away.
In terms of capcom, their games actually really sell. A lot. I have no idea what the fuck anyone here is talking about. Its capcoms unrealistic sales expectations and mis-managed budgets that was killing them, not their dlc practices and shit. They are just REALLY fucking stupid when it comes to spending money