people seem to think that being good at a game and liking a game have to coincide.
i’ve got a neutral opinion of tekken. i got into 5 and 5:DR but i’m not so sure i like the direction 6 is taking with the comeback feature. i know that when we had a scene here, the gameplay mostly consisted of poke/throw pressure, launcher, combo, oki. i guess that’s pretty much every game, but the way that tekken does it is sort of stale in my opinion, not too bad, but not really that amazing either. it seems way too overloaded with characters at this point as well.
i’d probably like VF better but nobody around here really plays it so i don’t have much to do with it.
I don’t know who died and made you the tekken force, but I guess it takes a scrub to know one. I just saying, you well versed in the are of saying “scrub”.
That’s the thing. I wouldn’t really call it wretched. Some of the areas are a little skewered. I can’t just point a finger at something like the juggles, because like someone posted a while back, you can do big in any fighting games. I hold VF in a higher esteem than I do Tekken right now, but I would be blind to say that you can’t pull off devastating combos/juggles in VF. I do believe that it hurts gamelay in other aspects, like when you combine it with th enew rage mode addition.
I don’t hate Tekken, but I don’t particularly like it either. I’m willing to give it another chance when 6 finally comes out.
I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know enough about it to be really competitive. I just find it unappealing that the tiniest mistake on your part can lead you to being juggled across the screen for 70% health. Then once you hit the ground, it’s a 50/50 chance you’ll defend wrong and get put in the same combo. Just forget it if you hit a wall, ugh.
6 looks fun from the videos. I just need to spend a lot more time with Tekken is my deal.
I know what you mean. I can’t do wd/ld to save my life on 1p, but I can do it like nuts on 2p. Fucking annoying (which is why I’m happy to have switched to Lili/Lars. f+3~df cancels are easier on the hands. :wgrin: )
However, I would like to correct the misconception of “tiniest mistake leads to 70% damage” part. The damage mainly depends upon how (un)safe the move was (unless someone is mindlessly whiffing attacks) on block and even on whiff:
-There are safe on block moves, which may or may not cause you to lose your momentum (depends on the frame-data of individual move).
Then there are jab punishable attacks which cost you 5%-15% of your health and a potential knock-down by very small number of characters.
After that, there are attacks known as shoulder punishable which will cost you 15%-20% of your health on block and a knock-down by comparatively more characters for oki.
And there are launch punishable attacks, which are usually high-risk and high-reward. These attacks can make you lose from 1/3rd of your health-bar to half-life (with walls) depending on the character.
The lows are also the same, but another factor known as low parry, is also applicable.
There are also many little nuances such as crush, auto-parries, fuzzy guarding, tracking, stepping, evasion, reversal (chickenable and unchickenable) which cannot be discussed here. But all of them affect punishing, momentum, available options and mind-game whether you are on defending side or attacking.
Of course this is merely a general idea, it can be (and mostly, is) broken down frame-by-frame for each and every character; punishing is different for different characters due to range and damage. Some characters are not good punishers (e.g. Steve) while some of them have excellent punishing tools (e.g. Kazuya). Some moves seem punishable on paper but the push-back makes them safe from certain (or all) characters. But then again, frame-data should always be used as a reference and one should not become too frame-reliant because even unsafe moves are very useful.
as a vf player, i’ve always been at odds with tekken. after awhile though, i figured i should give it a fair chance, so i picked up 5DR for a bit (meaning that maybe some of these things are no longer a problem in tekken 6).
in an nutshell, here’s my problems with tekken:
the evade mechanics. the best way i’ve heard it described is that vf’s evades are digital and tekken’s are analog. it makes sense to me, since in vf you have successful/unsuccessful evades and an audible cue whenever you evade successfully, whereas in tekken, i was often wondering whether or not my evade was successful until after it was finished. the other thing that annoyed me about tekken’s evade mechanics were that you didn’t really have any options after an evade, whereas in vf you have eteg, dmpk, om, etc.
the stages. i don’t mean aesthetically, rather that some stages are infinite planes (something vf did away with back with vf3) and that the walls seem like much less of a hazard than they are in vf.
the 50-50 on tech rolls. that’s got to be probably the silliest thing about the game.
safe launchers, the second silliest thing.
low and high crushes. they’re basically an over simplified version of vf’s priority system.
the throws. i wish i knew more about them, but quite frankly, nobody i played against in 5DR ever used them!
the character designs. sounds petty, i know, but it’s probably what i hear about vf more than anything.
now, is tekken by any means a bad game? of course not; mortal kombat is a bad game- tekken is a good game that’s hindered by flawed mechanics. i haven’t played 6 yet but i will probably get it for 360 when it comes out and give it a shot (since vf5r isn’t coming out any time soon).
The Wiki’s and whatnot definitely need to make a space for this. Sort of a “1/16” or “1/8 pushback” or something. Paul’s DF pushback is huge, so are EWGF pushbacks.
Yes, you don’t have an audible sound to distinguish whether the move was evaded; hence you have to rely on the visual cue (hit-sparks). Tekken’s evade mechanic does have options such as side-walk, SS attacks, SS cancelling etc. It is true that there is no ETEG in Tekken, but none is needed because throw-escapes cannot be buffered. These are different games with different mechanics after all.
Less of a hazard, really?
There are no 50/50 on tech-rolls in DR/6/BR because of walls, but tech-catches are good and add another dimension to games such as TTT.
Safe launchers aren’t that good (sans EWGF) and some of them are even situation specific launchers (e.g. generic d/f+2 doesn’t launch crouching opponents). But they even exist in VF (e.g. Akira’s 214P and Kage’s 9K+G)
Not really, Crushes are more like Sabakis than priority system.
Were you playing online? Because throws (usually) cannot be broken online, hence aren’t used as a result of moral philosophy. I can explain the throw-system in detail if you want.
I personally consider tekken the LEAST flashy fighting game(2d or 3d). I don’t mind SC4 or DOA juggles because they look cool, a lot of the tekken juggles/wall combos(except a few people like hworand and the boxer dude) look incredibly boring and ugly. Peoples ground strings look pretty cool, but half the time ground strings don’t even actually combo(which i find VERY odd, although DOA does this too), and most of the time it’s short ground string into launcher into ugly juggle, or launcher into ugly juggle. Sometimes for some characters juggles lead into cool looking wall combo, although a lot of peoples wall combos aren’t very cool either.
fair enough. i guess i just needed to play it more to figure that out.
though for the record, i don’t think tekken has to be a carbon copy of vf to be good. if anything, i wish it would offer the same kind of balance but with a completely different system (think gg to sf).
i’d say so. vf has insanely high damage wall combos and wall throws (especially 5r, hahah), so people are more enticed to evade to get out of that situation. i don’t see that much in tekken.
eh, maybe it’s just not my thing, but i don’t really like the way tekken does oki.
well yeah, even in vf launchers are situational. jacky’s 33K doesn’t launch crouched opponents, and it’s -17 on guard. but if say, smash upper was safe on guard (and that only launches on CH), that would dramatically alter jacky’s risk/reward. that’s kinda what i see tekken as being; a game with very skewered risk/reward. i can see the appeal of that, though it’s just not for me.
btw, akira’s 214p has 23 frames of startup and 54 frames of recovery. there’s a reason it’s +3 on guard. :razz: kage’s 9K+G is roughly the same.
as i understand it, low crushes were meant to be tekken’s way of implementing vf’s crouching lows and high crushes were meant to be like sabaki’s like you said. i could be wrong on this though.
mostly, yeah. when i played in person though i didn’t really come across anyone who used thows either.
not for me. i can’t stand the ridiculous looking bad 90’s anime (IN THE BAD WAY) designs of tekken.
edit: fuck, you got me. i forgot that i like miguel’s design in t6.
Right, 15 minutes before I go back to work, I’ll take the time to answer this as best as I can.
Frankly, they’re not the same. I would say between SC, Tekken, and VF, VF has the most unique way of handling evades. Tekken and SC handle it in a more “linear” manner at a basic level. Past that, you have a more “mechanical” (or as VF’ers say, analog) extension of the system. This is done on a per character basis (e.g. hayashida steps don’t exist with every character, snake dashes, etc.). Personally, I prefer VF’s system, but Tekken doesn’t necessarily need it either, so… it’s just a matter of “feel” really. (e.g. I prefer how Tekken handles hits, blocks, and whiffs).
Not in T6. They’re definitely enough of a hazard that some old-school players hate them (old-school meaning players who loved TTT - which had no walls whatsoever). While infinite plains are still present, every character actually benefits from walls in T6, because of the bound system. Although admittedly, some more than others. Removing the walls turns the game into a fight that is similar to the old TTT (lots of backdashing, etc.).
Which is, IMO, the main reason why infinite stages still exist in Tekken. It is simply tradition. Although it is also a “balancer” of sorts, and to a certain extent, a bonus choice, since even in the arcades, you can select which stage you wish to fight on. You can keep picking walls if you like, or not.
I disagree. That’s one of the aspects of Tekken which I prefer over VF. Tekken has a bigger wake-up game than VF. It’s not just about back rolls (often called tech rolls), there are the side rolls, wake up sweeps, wake up mids, and the oh-so-underused, but-oh-so-useful d+3, which is a short, lying down, stabbing kick that helps interrupt your opponent’s offense, and helps you get up (but if you whiff, you eat shit). There are also character specific wake-ups (Bears, Marduk, Lei, Yoshi, Chreddy, IIRC because I don’t use him, Dragunov as well, etc.) that go beyond the basic rolls/sweep/mid/jab kick game.
VF’s wake-up game is simpler by direct comparison, but…
and this is where VF is far superior IMO, but again, the system (VF) lends itself well, whereas Tekken’s wouldn’t. If I take a throw character like King, and Tekken required the kind of throw escapes that VF has, it would make King ridiculously powerful, because he already has enough strong strikes to rival a lot of players in the game.
Tekken does it simpler: Generally = lp+lk throws require lp to break. rp+rk throws require rp to break. lp+rp throws require lp+rp. However, this isn’t a 100% (iirc, Lars has a dashing rp+rk throw that is a lp+rp break for example).
So does Tekken need a complex throw game like VF does? Not until we see a very Goh-like character. But should VF have a simple throw system like Tekken? Absolutely not. That would severely nerf the likes of Goh, Jeffrey, et al.
If there is ONE thing I would like to see in Tekken’s throw game, it would be the addition of having blockstun’s affect throw windows. E.g. if you do a move that is -20 on block (basically a big move), and your opponent tries to throw you, you should have a smaller escape window than you would if the opponent simply tried to throw you while you were neutral.
(I’m pretty sure this doesn’t exist yet.)
In the past, yes to some extent, in BR, I’d say not really. They’ve nerfed juggles hard in BR. Two clean hit power moves from standing can sometimes equate to an average juggle combo. That’s just how much greater the damage scaling has been adjusted in BR. Combos have become more of a “I need to take you to the wall and keep you there” sort of thing, rather than just being a way to wipe away your opponent’s health.
So “safe” launchers (I’m guessing you’re talking about some d/f+2 uppercuts and Kaz’s fairly safe twin pistons) aren’t that safe anymore. Hunting for a d/f+2 twice (e.g. getting the first one blocked then trying again) will lead to you getting launched/punished instead.
Maybe. Again, it’s a matter of: does Tekken need it?
Personal opinions. I love Goh, Jean, Akira, Taka, and Shun. I think Kage (who I play, along with Akira), Lau, Pai, Jeffrey, Wolf, and Lei Fei are dry as sand though. Lion is just annoying (“I’m twice the man I used to be!” ugh.)
No game’s perfect, right? If we’re discussing just depth and mechanics, VF wins the fight, hands down. The system is incredibly well thought out. But Tekken can’t copy VF’s mechanics, because it wouldn’t be “Tekken.” SC is a lot more similar to VF’s “feel”, but is still closer to Tekken than VF, but with a universal parry system (which would potentially break both VF and Tekken if it existed in either game).
But as you said: does that make Tekken, SC, or VF bad games? Nope. Each of them are fun as hell, but not everyone can appreciate (or play) all 3 properly. Anyone who does has to have been doing so for years.
Basically, the whole point here is (which MarkMan already said a few pages ago): don’t go into a game expecting it to be a <insert adjective> version of a game you’re familiar with. Each game has it’s own thing going on.
SF =/= VF =/= Tekken =/= SC. Just play the one you like the most, and know when to keep quiet when you don’t know enough about the other. Simple.
Tekken hasn’t really been entertaining or interesting to me since 3. It seems like Namco used to really go the extra mile to give gamers maximum bang for their buck.
No offense, but I find it ironic after reading all those “65%/75% damage” and “OMG walls” comments in the exact same thread.
Yeah, some people just don’t like Tekken’s oki. But it really gives both players many options, situations and mind-games.
Isn’t smash upper already safe?
But in the end, there are only a handful of launchers completely safe in Tekken; even they have weaknesses and can be dealt with. The risk/reward isn’t much skewered if you think about it. Most characters in Tekken (especially BR) have great punishing tools as opposed to VF (-12/-15 in Tekken is a lot different from -12/-15 in VF). I can see where you are coming from, though.
You are referring to wrong terms here:
Low-crush = Moves which crush lows
High-crush = Moves which crush highs
No, the high-crushes are result of Tekken 4.
Guess what, you just got owned!!11!
Throws:
1 = LP
2 = RP
3 = LK
4 = RK
There are total three throw-breaks in Tekken: 1,2 and 1+2 depending on the animation of throw. Unlike VF, you will always see three different animations of throws:
Left arm preceding and above right arm (Throw-break = 1)
Right arm preceding and above left arm (Throw-break = 2)
None of the arm is preceding ( Throw-break = 1+2)
One thing though, attacks in the execution phase will not beat throws in Tekken. Generic 1+3 and 2+4 throws are i12 while other throws can also be i10 and i11 while have a relatively shorter or longer break-window. Also, only one throw-break is registered after a successful throw attempt. You cannot set-up a mid/throw (Nitaku) in Tekken, though.
