Cammy General Discussion: To Bee or not to Bee

Yeah j. Mp is situationally better sometimes. It’s last active frame sticks out under the hurtbox so it can beat certain AA’s like st jab, but it most be timed perfectly. It also has less hit stun, so on characters like Gief if you hit him too high it won’t allow you to follow up with anything substantial. St hk still has it’s place as well as divekick, but uou usually have to mix it up to get them to try to adapt or punish the AA’s they are trying to use.

All shimmies should start with a forward to bait the grab as no good opponent is going to react to a walk back shimmy with a grab or normal that is going to whiff. It did take me a while to realize that it was the forward walk that was triggering my opponent to want to tech and the backward walk that was making them want to hit a low normal. So now I bait the grab with a tight walk in walk out to st mp, st hp and I bait the low with a slight walk back into divekick CH b+mp TC.

I think you may have mixed yourself up Forest or your video isn’t showing what you were typing. You can’t do a st mp, cr mp, into cr mk if you are trying to do it from a meaty to hit Chun’s cr lk on wake up. You can only combo cr mp into cr mk on (CH), so that means you’d need to do cr mp (ch) to st mp then cr mk. Last season Chun had a 3 frame jab, so you’d usually try and do st mp (blocked) and then frame trap the jab with cr mp, then you do cr mk into spiral arrow. The only 3 hit off of Chun’s wake up I recall is cr mp to st mp to cr mk or st hp. Not st mp to cr mp, but that can also whiff against characters with more push back on normals so sometimes you can only get cr mp or st mp into st hp xx special.

Since you have Chun set to back wake up you have to delay the attack slightly over the quick rise version, so this might be throwing you off too. If you hit Chun a frame or two late it will increase the push back so the follow up cr mp will whiff. I’m pretty sure this is the same as it was from last season like all the other counter hit extra push back normals, but since Chun has a larger hit box now in crouching and st mp has less push back this combo is actually possible while it wasn’t before. Also (more bad news) is if you had set the character to crouch and block after you may have still gotten the cr mp to reach but it would have been blocked meaning you would have spiral arrowed most likely and gotten punished after. This happens because crouching hurt boxes are larger than stand boxes and at that range and timing the cr mp’s last active frame reaches the crouching hit box as they recover or whiffs on the standing box. For this reason you should avoid doing st mp to cr mp on hit, and only do it on block. If you see the hit you should be converting to st hp for more damage anyway or if it’s too far out just doing cr mk. In no situation should you be doing st mp (on hit) into cr mp as st hp and cr mk are both better options. The exception to this is if you are going for a buffered whiff punish or a follow up frame trap on block like st mp to cr mp but as of S2 you can now do st mp to st mp instead as well. Shit even st mp to st hp is a 3 frame trap now.

In most situations if you are going for a meaty (ie you’ve seen they like hitting a button on wake up) using cr mp or st mp is your best option as you can always convert to st hp xx special safely for good damage. If you notice they are always blocking on wake up then st lk to cr lp or cr lk or grab are your best options. Make note that st lk to other lights will never whiff on CH but going to B+mp can whereas going to st mp into cr mk on hit will always connect, but is a 4 frame trap. If your opponent starts to catch on that there is a hole after st lk, cr lp then start switching to cr mp after the cr lp instead of st mp as it’s a 3 frame trap, can still combo after the cr lp (CH) and can combo into st mk if the cr mp (CH) instead. So basically you bait them into a hitting a button after st lk, st lp because they think you are either going for a grab or st mp and then hit them with the cr mp into cr mk instead. This really makes them scared to hit a button and is essentially how Meyers got Stupendous to let him run all over his ass at WNF. Stu had so many chances to jab/grab Meyers out but was just to scared to try after being caught so many times. That’s the thing, if you let Cammy pressure you then she will, but you have to let her. Here’s that match if you want to check it out. They both made a lot of mistakes but Stu lost because he let Cammy get away with too many things and it’s mainly because Meyers scared him into not wanting to do anything. This is what you want to strive for with Cammy imo. Put the fear into them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGmPEguiXtc

Is it me or does, mkSA give better QR oki.

For example:

mkSA -->

  • dash, throw (throw overlaps to 2f of wakeup)
  • dash, 5lk (not true meaty, but 1st active frame hits 1st frame of wakeup)
  • dash, 2lp (2nd active hits, 1st frame, +3oB. So 2lp, 5mp should tag 3fs)
  • dash, mp ( does not hit meaty, but you are still in fadv).

Where as:

hkSA -->

  • dash, throw (whiffs due to throw invul on 1st frame of wakeup)
  • dash, 5lk (whiffs due to being in recovery of 1st frame of wakeup)
  • dash, 5mp (hits on 2nd active frame, but you cant threaten a throw w/o walk up, but does put you at +2 oB w/white dmg)
  • dash, 2lp (whiffs)

This is me just theorizing, since I don’t have the game (out in the bush, 2hrs away from civilization on standby) and I just learnt about and how to use TA oki tool.

**He has a misttake on her 2lp. Has 3 actives.

***Also anyone know the frame count for a tk canon strike before the startup of the strike?

@Cipher in your Cammy guide you have her cabon strike frame data listed as (15, 13/11/-/-5/+9) is the 15 the minimum frames needed for to perform this?

@p1nkt1t5 hkSA dash is +5
5lk hits meaty on second frame
5mp hits 1f late, but is now +3 oB
5lp hits perfect meaty

And you don’t tk regular cannon strike, but I have no clue how fast it can come out.

@carups so all those oki tools are off by a frame then? Specifically fat and TA.

Who is Cypher?

You refere to this part here:
Cannon Strike QCB+K in the air(15,13/11/-/-5-+9)
First of all I forgot to update this, thanks for that. This includes both regualr and EX Divekick, now that the EX has 4 more recovery frames, it’s no longer +9 at best, but +5.
Second of all the 15, is the startup for the regualr Divekick and the 13 for EX.
I don’t know the exact frameamount for the divekicks, I used the blocks in training mode to get used to the heights.
If you TK them right, regular ones will be around the second box, EX ones at the height of the first.

Totally disagree, QCF+HK, dash, a short walk, then s MP, c MP, c MK was very reliable in season 1. Edit: the point of the s mp c mp c mk string is 2 hit confirm windows. 1 being normal hit, the other CH if they did something after s mp was blocked.

Remember this great, long block string? They nerfed it too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2Kj99sG6RM&feature=youtu.be

Yo disregard that video everyone. I figured out why the c MK was whiffing. I was doing the c LP, c LP too slowly. You have to do the c LP, c LP as fast as possible for the c MK to reach!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsfEHCgV6M8&feature=youtu.be

I’m telling you man. Season 2 cracked Forest.

At 3:55 with V Trigger on Kaz got a VT divekick, did s MP, c HK? I went, “why did he do that?” Then I realized it was a reset to save the V Trigger. I didn’t know Cammy could do s MP, c HK!

I also liked Kaz’s string s LK, c LP, s MP usage. After the s MP on block, he mixes s HP with a f,f dash. Interesting usage of the CH string c LP, s MP, s HP as well. I personally use c LP, c MP often. c MP has more range than s MP, but obviously s MP, s HP is more damage and grey life.

Nah SunTzu I forgot you couldn’t delay the c LP c LP. I’ve been doing Survival a lot with different characters and characters like Karin or Nash really benefit from delaying LP, LP combos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtGJinbLAO0&feature=share

It’s funny that so many people say now nerf Cammy, but have no clue what to nerf.

Nerf her normals! Because a footsies character doesn’t need good normals!
Nerf the divekicks, because they can still be made + on block and thats BS!
Nerf the Walkspeed, because you know Walkspeed should be nerfed.
Nerf the throws, because… she can throw you!
Nerf the V-Skill, because it’s a free way in! (LOL!)

btw. these nerfs aren’t pulled out of my ass, these are from comments I saw under some videos.
Still not funny enough?
“This character is broken, everytime I try to DP, I get counterhit, wtf? Her normals beat my DP! This needs to be nerfed!”

Very true Cipher. On the Jump-In podcast, Crusher from Japan said he didn’t think Cammy is top 5 and that Kaz is the only top Cammy in Japan. That said, more Kaz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ3ojmqZTGE&feature=share https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bNmix2-I3E&feature=share

Am i the only one losing to downback?

No you aren’t. You have to be ever vigilant with grabs when they do that. Get them to tech by grabbing, so you can setup shimmy punishes. Some will be stubborn as hell on this so just grab them to death. If they seem to only tech and not whiff a normal or a grab when you shimmy you are being to obvious with it so mix it in with different strings to try and throw them off. Otherwise try to beat them in the neutral. Her st mp, st mk, cr mk, st hp are really good in the neutral.

Maybe always plus frames ex divekick and invincible DP could return?

^
I’m probably the only one, but I actually like that they took away invincible DPs (without meter)

1 - I’ve learned to deal with pressure better. In season 1, I would DP on wake up way too much and I’d get CC’d and die. Now, I’m blocking and recognizing strings better and overall, it’s taught me better defense.

2 - I like the flow of the game better. As an intermediate player, creating and keeping pressure takes some time to learn and understand and when I’m playing Super Silver Ryu’s 33% of the time, it scares me off from applying oki pressure because I can eat a random DP at anytime.

Maybe there can be a compromise and make the invincible frames 2-6 instead of 3-6. That way, it’s not invincible, but only a perfect meaty can beat it.

I think it’s pretty obvious what the changes will be, but I have some ideas for Urien. A big issue with him is his recovery frames and the effect of online lag and delay input. Since Urien’s headbutt whiff’s on crouchers by nature there is no felt que to punish. Since the move whiffs it’s more likely to be shown late with lag not allowing you to punish their mistake (ie roll back only shows the last few frames of a move when lagging). So I propose they make it hit crouched opponents so it cannot whiff. This would still give him a safe special that they can still throw out but now it will always be -2 and end their turn effectively. Second his EX tackle needs some start up frames added so it’s at least reactable from half screen away. For a move that leads into V-trigger from more than half screen it should require some more set up/thinking. Lastly they need to remove ambiguous block advantage on regular tackle. He already has great normals and range. He doesn’t need a free safe way in as well. He has knee drop which can be placed to make it safe, so I’m not sure why they gave him two ambiguously safe specials to get in and apply pressure.

As far as Cammy goes, if anything she will lose something not get something back. I could see them dropping her +3 on st mp back to +2 to appease the haters/idiots. She isn’t getting anything new I can assure you of that. Greenwood is right in that the DP nerf helps newer players to learn the game rather than mash, but it makes the grappler match up so much harder. Now if grapplers couldn’t CC my HK DP I would consider that a fair trade off since it beats grabs but still loses to buttons. That means if I took the risk to think you were going to grab I’d get a little damage, but if you hit buttons I’d take a little damage. The problem is now if I HK DP I still take the rick of a little damage against buttons and a huge risk if he blocks, so the better option is to just jab on wake up instead which seems to defeat the whole purpose of the HK DP only being grab invincible. Any move that is only grab invincible shouldn’t be CC able in my opinion. It begs the question if Birdie’s ex Killing head is grab invincible and isn’t CCable why is Cammy’s HK DP? I understand when its fully or half body invincible to everything, but when its just projectile or grab you shouldn’t get CC’d during recovery frames. That’s a read, so they should have to do the same besides just block. That’s my only gripe with her right now. When you have no meter against a grappler you’re basically fucked on your wake up.

The DP nerf will probably get changed because it screws shotos over. I have stopped playing this game but they need 2 buff Juri, Ryu and Ken (a little bit). There r other obvious characters that need buffs so I didn’t bother mentioning them.

Urien, Rog, Guile and Laura (a little bit) need nerfs maybe Cammy does a bit as well

I’m surprised Bison is not on your list. I feel like him and Gief are the ones people have been sleeping on as they all thought they were ass last season.

What do you think Juri needs? With charges she seems to be really good. The damage she can get off an anti air is nuts.

Ryu just needs his st lk back, but having a light with such a lunging hit box is a problem with the new way hurt boxes linger in season 2. They’ll be able to mash it basically. He still has amazing damage and stun. Good Ryus that now how to space really well are still beasting. Without the DP he has to play more defensive, but once he gets setup he’s a tough cookie to crack.

Ken got normalized. Giving people a character that basically beats anti airs and all wake up/frame traps without thinking was never a good idea. Ken is still good he just has to think more about his hits. I don’t think they could bring him back to his former glory without making him super annoying again though.

Bison and gief r fine now IMO in that they both have exploitable weaknesses. They r not God tier there r just gd which is how it should be.

I still don’t think Juri is very gd. I feel like Juri still has a lot of problems that she had from season 1. Her normals r ok but still kinda stubby her AAs are terrible crHP is still bad outside of v trigger and her dp gets stuffed very easily and when she doesn’t have lk charge she struggles. I don’t think she is terrible but she could do with a few minor tweets maybe to her normals and she would b miles better.

The system of SFV goes against how Ryu wants to play. He wants to zone with fireballs and space but that game plan is not rewarding and is extremely risky but he doesnt have the normals 2 play agressively and now with the dp nerf he can’t even do a last minute dp if they jump over his fireball. When u look at the top tiers and also certain other characters Ryu can’t do anything against them.

Ken just needs more range on some of his normals so he can at least play some kinda footsies without having 2 just use StHk all day.

Interesting, we went from people complaining about what Cammy can’t, to a what buffs need other characters.

For me I wish they would redo Chun-Li, so I would have a sub to play. She was fun to play in IV, but urg I hate her SFV incarnation.
Juri is fun too, but her charges keep her down. Her anti-airs are actualy decent and work pretty well, she just needs a rework of her chargemechanics and maybe buff her fireball.

Also Ryu doesn’t want you to zone, because this isn’t ST/SFIV Ryu.
This Ryu is close to SF3 Ryu, who had also mainly stubby normals, a quick dash, bad fireball and did lots of damage.
If you see the playstyle between Tokido and Daigo, you see that Tokido played him more close up and in your face, compared to Daigo, who tries to play the character in a way, he’s not designed to be played.

Another comment I like is the “Cammy has to get in, because she has to!” comments, I saw since the beta. Then I saw people mainly jumping,Hooligan, V-Skill in, instead of walking the opponent down.
I usualy don’t go on the offence with Cammy if I have no reason to, my general approche is to keep the opponent away and frustrate them, so they start throwing unsafe shit out and jump at me. Another tactic I like is to teach them patterns. Something like me doing 10x the same thing, to make them counter the whole time said thing in an autopilot way.
Generaly, poking the opponent and try different things, to see if they have exploitable problems or a weaknes in a departmeant, is a much safer and stronger way to play, than trying to get in no matter the cost.

Another strange thing.
I basicly see none of the old Cammy players here.
It was probably hard to realise that Vortex and Setplay wasn’t what Cammy was before SFIV came out.
Reminds me, I played CVS2 yesterday ft5 against the gf and it’s realy sad that this game never got a re-release with online mode. Cammy is so godlike in this game, especialy with K-Groove if you can use the tools right.