I dunno, after seeing the video MiloDC posted, the SSF4 Hawk seems AWESOME. Did you guys see how fast the start-up was for the Dive???
I’ll see how much he was changed and work with it. New game means new strategies and I’ll find them all.
To me, playing the new Street Fighter 4 all depends on the balance tweaks and the improvements to online play. Otherwise, my opinion of SF4 will stay the same - super fun to watch, super boring to play.
That was awesome, I liked the new chick too.
[media=youtube]SoO2tVL82Qo&feature=related[/media]
AWWWRRRIIIGGGHHHTTT!!! Maxout may be vertical now 0.0 or it was just for his ultra.
Lol, at the comments, apparently all the other nationalities are just “white” now.
If there are more characters, I might drift away from HDR 
Some great points brought up in this thread. As far as traveling to offline tournies. Are any of you attending Season’s Beatings 4? The overall turnout is probably going to be huge since Daigo will be in attendance, and I’m sure a decent portion of those attendees will be entering HDr.
Last year we ran ST on DC and got around 30 entrants, which I thought was pretty good considering the ST scene at that time. I would expect a much bigger turnout this year given that it’s a new game and has an online community.
Would be great to play you guys offline, hope to see you there.
Hate it! I just hate it!
The appellation itself was uttered to me at West Coast Warzone by my friend zaspacer, and I think it’s an accurate one.
Bias.
How fine is fine? How did you place at WCWZ?
Just asking.
Like Sirlin has written, canceling a move and then canceling the cancel and then doing a super motion is NOT “casual friendly” stuff, despite what the producer of the game and someone who loves to perform advanced combos (e.g. you) say.
As a seasoned player, you, James, should know that MANY of us avid players of fighting games like to play a game at its highest level of competition, or at least believe that we can achieve that status.
The problem that some of us have with 4 is that we see what the very BEST players of the game are doing (you may “do fine” at the game, but seeing someone do OK isn’t very inspiring), and we realize what it will take to play at their level.
It’s not like watching an A-level Super Turbo match, where the players are showcasing their intellectual faculties (reading the opponent, knowing match-ups, knowing positioning and spacing, pulling off tick-throws and tick-grabs at opportune moments, etc.) more than anything else. Most people can realistically aspire to that kind of play; Super Turbo’s manual dexterity requirements for playing at the highest level aren’t prohibitive.
I was in a room with DGV last night. He did a lot of his usual “[media=youtube]sonZq6ZnF90[/media]” intimidation and confusion through noise (i.e. dancing around with hurricanes, throwing out normals out of range, etc.), which sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t work, but mostly, he won just by being able to zone out his opponents, and knowing how to react to specific threats. That’s how virtually all of the top SF2 players achieve that status.
He annihilated my Cammy, but when he faced characters that made his tactics less effective (e.g. Dhalsim and Zangief), he had a lot more trouble, and lost some matches. And these people were able to beat him without being able to play piano.
With SF4, though, I watch someone like Daigo or Poongko or Wong or Valle or Choi, or even Yeb, where the ability to (for example) combo into uppercut then immediately cancel the uppercut then immediately cancel the cancel by double tapping forward then perform a super or ultra motion with the proper timing can acutally turn the tide of a game, if not a whole set. I have yet to see an A-level SF4 match that didn’t involve several high-dexterity maneuvers at crucial points in the fight.
And it isn’t a question of not being able to learn to do stuff like that. What reeks is that one needs to learn it at all (again, this applies to those of us who aspire to play the game at the highest levels). It is the difference between calling a good football play and being able to chuck the ball sixty yards down-field (an overstatement, but I think you get my point). Why do I want to spend time and energy learning how to chuck the football, when there are already games out there that allow me to compete with the best players mostly for just calling the right play?
Edit: Note that I am speaking for myself, here, and (I suppose) a few other people who I know feel the same way I do. For those of you out there like James who dig tricky combos (I know you’re legion – the Marvel games were huge hits in the American fighting game community), it’s all good. High-level SF4 play will appeal to you (in that sense, anyway), and that’s great.
I would have loved to, but unfortunately, it’s just too far for me to drive to. Curse you, Ohio, for being at 12 hours driving distance!
I agree.
Bullshit. Total bullshit. Super Turbo has insane execution barriers for high level play.
Reversals Specials and SUPERS? Safe reversals? Safe jumps? Reversal throws? Renda cancels?
Link combos? Try 3xstanding short -> standing roundhouse with Dictator and tell me your success rate in ST.
Mashing specials? Negative edge? Standing command throws? 2-in-1 SUPERS?
You think this stuff isn’t prohibitive. Sirlin even changed the inputs for special moves from ST to HDR to make them easier because ST was TOO HARD for even intermediate players. Mashing was made easier, inputs windows made larger and fixed, command throws made easier, simplified moves and commands.
Watch [media=youtube]_mVS9UAxLao&#t=4m33s"[/media] and see what’s going on here. Multiple reversals in a row. Instant overheads with perfect precision. You think this stuff isn’t prohibitively difficult? Who other than Taira does this stuff? No one else on the planet plays Dictator like this. Why? Because execution wise it’s incredibly difficult.
How many T.Hawk players in the world can actually perform the safe jump loop on a consistent enough level to win at high levels? Maybe six or seven people in the entire world? :wasted:
High level ST is one of the hardest games to play execution wise.
I think one problem with the HDR scene is it’s very hard for newer people to jump in without getting looked at like idiots for even trying. If some of you guys reached out to new players who were willing to learn and were serious about getting good, you could bring in new players into the scene pretty often, I’m sure. Does anyone host rooms to help out the people I just described (aka: me :bgrin:)? Maybe it does happen and I just never have seen it, but honestly… if someone was willing to show some of us newer players the ropes, it could really make a difference in terms of turnout for events, etc. Just a thought!
Fresh Meat! lol But i do not think so but I would be willing to help you out, exactly who do you use(most frequently or exclusively which is your main)? And excellent idea man, if you are willing to take up the offer ill be glad to play you. Also post a question in the appropriate character thread for answers for a particular moves or characters causing frustration, it will be answered.
Edit: Letting you know my schedule is shaky, so ill add you as a friend to hit you up for some matches and have an idea of where to find you.
Total bullshit!
Dammit!
BASTARD!!
I love how geeks dive insults-first into a controversial topic, flailing wildly, when they’re positive that they’ve got take-down material.
Actually, I don’t love it, but whatever.
Insane! WTF were they thinking??
Scrubs do them regularly.
None of those have anything to do with manual dexterity, smart guy. Anyone can do that stuff, it’s merely a question of timing, spacing, etc.
Uncommon and not a prominent factor in high-level play. You will sometimes see renda-canceling in a world-class ST match, but nowhere near the frequency with which you’ll see normal->shoryuken->FADC->ultra et al.
While I rarely see SF4 finals that aren’t rife with piano playing, I have seen many top players win and lose major ST tournaments without renda canceling coming into play.
Er, yes, there do exist superstar players who exhibit amazing execution and timing skills. So the hell what? That’s true of ANY game, and has no bearing on game design.
I will be there!
I’d be more than happy to help you out. Add me if you want.
And I actually do this all the time, both on HDR and GGPO ST. Not long ago, I played a dude on ST using Chun Li for like, 3 hours straight, using every character I know, and telling him what works. Her best pokes, character-specific strategies, etc. I’m no Chun expert by any means, but it went from me crushing him to having lots of close games. Results like that make it worth it.
Funny you mention Sirlin. He’s not exactly master of execution and dexterity. Yet he has competed and placed very well at high levels of ST. Why? Because ST does NOT have “insane execution barriers for high level play”. Most high level matches are won by strong fundamentals and mind games. It may help in some cases to be able to pull off that big link combo/super cancel, but it’s certainly not a necessity.
But plenty of other people play dic and do very well. And precise instant overheads still =/= SF4’s shit. Besides, if being able to land huge TOD’s and pulling off clutch reversal supers to save your life isn’t your thing, there are plenty of other characters in ST that don’t require this at all.
From what I’ve seen, I’d say that this website exists for the very purpose of helping players get better, no matter what level they’re at.
However, I think a more pertinent question is…How can the ropes be taught to players while playing online? Is there a way of setting up an “online training dojo” so to speak? Is there a way of doing this that would be evident to any noob that basically says, “HEY YOU! YOU NEW AT THIS GAME? COME OVER HERE AND GET TRAINED!”. Is there at least a way to point players, especially the ones that can obviously use the help, to this website while playing on XBox Live or PSN?
I’m typing this because I believe the best way to spread the news about something is to use what you have…not rely on someone else. If this community is going to grow, we have to be sure that we’re doing all that we can to achieve that goal. That may require getting creative, too. Anyway, just throwing out food for thought.
I can certainly sympathize. Single moves in SF2 do a lot of damage. Positioning and dictating the flow of the match also play a very strong role. Which, BTW, I think is a big part of what makes the game so much fun. But yeah, if you don’t know what you’re doing, it’s not too hard for a skilled player to put you into a bad spot and pummel you.
There’s a *lot *of information out there about this game, if players choose to look for it. Between these forums, youtube videos, NKI/T.Akiba data, Yoga Book Hyper data, event hubs, gamefaqs, and the hit-box display mode in training mode everyone has access to almost all of the data and techniques for this game.
Still, I’ll admit that it can be time consuming to sift through all of these things, make sense of them, and incorporate them into your play. Is there anything in particular that you can think of that’d make it easier for new players to get up to speed in this game?
I have joined or created rooms a couple of times to help other Dhalsim players learn some things. And I know that myself, and many others, are happy to give advice to anyone in a room that asks how to deal with a situation. But in general, no, I’m not aware of any explicit training sessions being hosted for new players. Most people just send friend requests and get together when they see friends online.
A regular training session might not be a bad idea though. If there’s enough people really interested in that, maybe we could collectively put something together. Like, one night a week a good guest player could host a room for an hour or two and give advice to new players or something. Not sure how well it’d work, but it’s a neat idea.
You’re absolutely right; this forum is an amazing place for learning, no matter what skill level you are at. I was just pointing out the one aspect I do see lacking in terms of allowing a community of this age and experience to grow. I honestly think if some of the “elders” (for lack of a better word) were willing to pick one or two nights a MONTH to help out a handful of newbs like me who are serious about learning, you could have a training session from a different person once a week and hopefully see some growth.
This is all theoretical, but imagine it became pretty well known that the HDR community regularly helped newer players get better: players who are serious about getting better at other games would more than likely participate as well because quite a bit of the knowledge that can be learned from HDR will transfer over. You’ll increase the exposure of the game and get people interested who probably wouldn’t have picked it up because it’s “old”.
Anyhow, I’m so tired of either playing against mindless scrubs or players I could actually learn from who won’t give me the time for more than one match before leaving me in the dust because I’m still learning. This gets very discouraging; one thing that would make it a LOT easier to bear is if I had just gotten out of a session with some fellow SRKers a few days prior and knew that I wanted to practice X or Y so I’m obviously better the next time we all meet up for a bit of training.
The other thing that can be really helpful in learning your game is seeing and experiencing high level play more often. Check out the WWL youtube channel (www.youtube.com/users/WorldWarriorsLeague) for some great matches to watch and think about joining us one week and seeing what that level of play looks like. I know all to well that being new to ST / HDR means taking your beatings, but I can say now I give much better than I get 
That’s what she said, hello!
Milo:
Everyone always sticks on FADC cancels. At this point, it’s an excuse. As I mentioned in another thread, there are literally only 5 characters that use it well. Ryu, Sagat, Cammy, Rufus, and Abel. Cammy and Abel aren’t even top tier. And Rufus barely needs it at all to win because he has 7000 better baby-skilled combos that allow him to land Ultras. Otherwise, no other character even HAS a good FADC that’s worth wasting meter on. The only 6th character is Gen, who I have already admitted is the closest to being any sort of “Guitar Hero-ish” character in the game. But only counting high tiered characters, there are only two characters that need it to be high level. How does that equate a “need-to-learn skill”?
And no one can complain about Links anymore either. If “safe jumping” and “reversals” are all about timing and not manual dexterity, Links don’t count anymore either. 'Cause they are jump timing too and not manual dexterity.
And it’s easy for you and all ST players to trivialize the dexterity required in ST. There is a reason the raging debate between Meaties and Reversals existed for so long: because they were HARD to do. We had to invent Pianoing and shit just to make it easier. You pass it off as simple “timing” but come on… so much technique and finger dexterity is involved in pianoing. I can FADC way more consistently than I can Reversal in ST.
And I see crazy high-level manual dexterity stuff in ST all the time. Fei Long meaty Fierce into Fierce into Rekkas, Ken Low Short x 2 into Super, Bison cross-up Forward, Short, Short, Low Forward into Psycho Crusher, Hawk Stand Jab into 720, Chun Li storing Supers and still being able to pressure with Low Forwards without ever losing charge… it’s just that we’ve been playing SF2 for 20 years now so things just feel like they are easier than they were. Some of these concepts, like Safe Jumping, weren’t even prominent until recently. It took that long for them to come to light. 15 years from now, FADC cancels will probably seem trivial and we’ll be complaining about needing to do “high dexterity” stuff like Pianoing for 1 frame Reversals.
And maybe this following statement is true, but does that mean you hate every other Fighting Game as well? 'Cause just about every other SF iteration has equally as annoying manual dexterity things as SFIV. I mean, there are things in ST that I still can’t do to this day consistently. But there aren’t many things in SFIV that I can’t do.
And I honestly do perform just fine with Cammy in SFIV. You seem to imply that maybe I’m not doing fine because I didn’t place high in WCW (maybe I’m reading it wrong 'cause it’s hard not to read things you say without hearing it in a mocking tone… ^_^). Well, my problems are with my own level of play, not with manual dexterity. Now… if SFIV was as prohibitive because of manual dexterity as everyone claims, I should be mopping the floor with everyone, no? My “Guitar Hero Skills” are awesome in SFIV, and its obviously not giving me an edge over other players. Maybe some other factor is getting in my way… maybe… those that beat me are “players [who] are showcasing their intellectual faculties.”
And in fact, I DID do really well in WCW. I lost to a Balrog who was being coached, and Balrog is already one of her worst matches so it sucked having to fight against two sets of eyes and two minds. And then I lost to another Cammy player who ended up in semis and did really well there. If I had beaten him, I probably could have been in semis myself. In between, I beat 5 other players pretty soundly.
And if you are needing to see any A-Level SFIV matches that require little dexterity, watch ANY match involving Balrog. I mean, Wong vs. Daigo at Evo finals is a great example. Here is Daigo trying to do some crazy dexterity things, and he still almost lost to Wong, who was doing almost NO dexterity things. Wong was just playing REALLY GOOD FOOTSIES, which is just using the brain and nothing else. Daigo did not win in the end because his manual dexterity was better.
- James
Lol I must suck at life cause the complete opposite is true for me :sad: