:annoy:
STOP IT JAMES, OR YOU’RE GONNA GET ME TO START PLAYING AT THE ONLY ARCADE IN TENNESSEE THAT HAS SFIV!!!
Sort of like the only arcade in TN. . . 
Stop making me hate the east coast more than I already do:crybaby:
An excuse? For what, exactly?
I don’t like FADC. It is a crowd-pleasing contrivance that feels not the least bit natural to do, a highly artificial way to introduce combo extension into tried and true Street Fighter mechanics. Super canceling in SF3 was bad enough.
So far! I seriously doubt that all of the tricks and tactics of SF4 have been unearthed. (And now we have a new game with at least eight more characters coming – at least three of which, i.e. Guy, Makoto, and Ibuki, are very likely to have crazy FADC combos as well, assuming their designs remain true to their older versions).
Hell, of the characters that you mentioned, three of them infest SF4 tournaments. Seems like every other match involves Sagat, Ryu, or Rufus regularly dealing the neighborhood of 30%+ damage using combos that involve focus cancels. As I see it, that’s plenty of evidence that focus canceling has to be mastered if one wants a shot at attaining the upper echelons of play (which Yeb did, for example, using FC to deal 15- and 18-hit Gen combos on some of the best players).
I don’t want to focus (no pun intended) on the FADC. That maneuver is just one example (perhaps the worst) of the higher echelons of game play that are available only to those willing to commit to excelling at complex combo sequences. (And this is intentional; I remember Yoshinori Ono saying early on that focus attacks/cancels were meant to be employed as a means for more skilled players to create novel attack sequences.)
[media=youtube]OWH95sJKD4k#t=1m21s[/media] (@ 1:21)
[media=youtube]mnUBxca2AOc#t=6m23s[/media] (@ 6:23)
[media=youtube]mnUBxca2AOc#t=8m10s[/media] (@ 8:10)
You mention Cammy, who I love to play in SF2 but who I don’t like in SF4 because being good with her means mastering Guitar Hero sh!t like the instant dive. I could take the time to learn that move, but no thanks – not only because it’s a manual dexterity feat, but also because it’s plain offensive to me in that air dives have almost always been stupid broken in Capcom fighters (XMvSF Wolverine and Rogue, Magneto, Q-Bee, Anakaris, Yun, Rufus, etc.), and the use of them takes game play down to the guessing game level that has infested Street Fighter ever since parries, universal overheads, EX specials, et al. became mainstays in SF3.
Yes they are. Anything involving a well-timed series of maneuvers is manual dexterity. If safe jumping and reversals involved multiple inputs at the level of link normals-into-special and/or super and/or ultra, they’d be similar manual dexterity achievements, as well.
Not trivializing it, just saying that it’s far less crucial to high-quality play than it is in SF4.
Yeah, and I’ve seen guys who could go through the ghosts in Ms. Pac-Man with impressive frequency (they don’t affect her if her mouth is closed). Nevertheless, not being able to do that doesn’t mean you can’t be awesome at Ms. Pac-Man.
?? Where have I said that I hate SF4? Didn’t I say that I have been giving the game another shot, recently? I just said that I couldn’t stand particular aspects of it.
OK.
I really wouldn’t use a bad match-up like Ryu vs. Boxer in defense of your position. To me, that seems kind of like defending Cammy as having a good rush-down game in Super Turbo by pointing to matches vs. T.Hawk. Sure, there are always exceptions to the rule, but they hardly negate the rule.
That’s just weird to me.
Same here.
Well coming from guy who dexterity absolutely sucks, I find HDR (Or the mechanics for it) MUCH easier compared to SF4. I can’t no matter how hard I try complete the Trails. I can’t get into that game because of it. I personally like the Guitar Hero reference because it explains SF4 perfectly. That’s all I see at high level play.
FADC easier than Reversal?
DP -> FADC (Press Two Buttons) -> Dash forward (Tap Stick Forward Twice) -> (Enter Combo finisher here)
compared to:
DP at proper time (Bam! Reversal)
Woah. I must be awesome then! 
No one should ever use those Trials as an indication of how hard SFIV is to play. I can come up with equally obtuse Combos for any SF game that would make them feel impossible.
The reason I can stand by what I say is because I can always do an FADC if I need it. Even though I KNOW how to do a Reversal in ST, I can maybe, at best, geg it out with a 60% consistency. If Reversals were a easy as veryone is saying it is, than Meaty attacks would be an invalid tactic like it is in SFIV. But as it stands, it is almost always worth going for Meaties in ST because the risk/reward is actually worth going for Meaties because i know people can’t do it consistently.
- James
HD Remix sucks. Stop playing it.
SFIV is king of fighters. In fact, I like to think of it as King of Fighters 2009: Battle for Supremacy of Fighting Because It Ain’t Over Till It’s Over and We All Know Violence is a Beautiful Thing. Or, as I like to call it: KOF2009BFSOFBIAOTIOAWAKVIABT
If SFIV is like Guitar Hero, I would call HD Remix Rock Band. It’s that “other” game that has similar mechanics but isn’t as cool. “The Beatles: Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix” does sound like it might be fun though. I can imagine Ringo pulling out the drum sticks for his winning pose but not actually using them for the fight (like that lame ass Fei Long with his nunchucks).
Super SFIV will probably be the best fighting game ever. Dee Jay will be known as “fat girl” tier because he is always on top. Let me explain. You see, it’s not about “more cushion for the pushin’” like Queen or Spinal Tap would have you believe. Sure, the cushion is nice. But, the real pleasure in a fat chick is the force obtained while she is on top. As we all know, weight is mass times gravity. Fat chicks have the mass that adds to weight. So, in conclusion, DJ = fat girl tier. FGT. Please use this in the common Street Fighter vernacular (like “dictator”, “claw”, and “FADC”). For example, you can add the new acronym in an example enclosed in parenthesis:
(like “dictator”, “claw”, “FADC”, and “FGT”)
You see how I added a comma immediately after FADC and then moved the “AND” after it. Just like that. You got it!
So, in conclusion (yet again), I think my post clearly details:
- SFIV is better than HD Remix.
- SFIV players are better than HD Remix players.
- A fantasy Street Fighter league needs to be created for the recent Street Fighter leagues that have been popping up. It’s like Fantasy Football but way cooler.
- FGT in SFIV is Sagat. FGT in Super SFIV is Dee Jay.
- Where are the white women at?
I’m with Jchensor, I can FADC more consistently than reversal in ST. There is almost no timing involved in focus cancelling, it’s just a series of inputs. That shouldn’t be too hard for anyone who has some experience with fighting games. Timing something on the reversal frame is harder.
Aside from that everyone I talk to has trouble executing the simplest things in ST after playing sf4 because that game is just too lenient.
Oh lawd! :looney:
Fantasy WWL? I LOVE IT. Totally doing that. :lol:
No one is saying that reversals are easy – just that they’re simpler to perform (especially for charge characters) than FADC.
Reversals are definitely more difficult to time, but performance-wise (which is what I’ve been talking about, i.e. manual dexterity), any moron can pull them off. FADC is FAR more difficult to perform.
I don’t care for muscle memory contests. I tried a few of the trials, quit once I tried the more difficult ones a few times. I could feel my brain turning to mush.
It reminded me of a Street Fighter Alpha 2 tournament match that I had vs. Thao Duong, where he played his typical turtle Chun-Li (I was playing Rose). Normally, I die in tourneys because I do my usual playing for the art of playing, and not playing to win, but this time I forced myself to stay in tournament mode – leave risk-taking at a minimum, rely more on rote reaction and not creativity, wait for opportunities to perform damaging muscle memory combos, etc. I literally started to get that dizzy, out-of-body feeling that one gets when, for example, staring a long time at a nondescript spot on a wall or a ceiling. It was an intensely uncomfortable feeling, surely the kind of thing that Dave Sirlin means when he advocates using turtling to induce exhaustion in one’s opponent. I instinctively reverted to my normal style of play at that point, whereupon I lost the match.
I just cannot abide neanderthal crap like dial-a-combo trials and turtling. My brain rejects it.
I’ve known zaspacer (Terry) for many years, he is good at coming up with analogies like that. 
I’ve heard a lot of people claim they don’t wanna learn SFIV because it’s too “dexterity prohibitive” because of FADCs. I’ve heard it from more than a few people.
So were Super Combos when they were introduced. So? We seem to be okay with those now, right?
This is valid, but it’s becoming less and less so with the way information is being shared these days and with the 20 years of knowledge-base we have built up. Usually, the only real new things that are discovered late in game cycles are related to glitches, like Roll Canceling. Third Strike and MvC2, for example, have looked the same at tourneys for the past 5 or so years.
Rufus not so much, as i mentioned. Ryu and Sagat, yeah. And it is a reason why they are top tier characters, absolutely.
However, I haven’t seen people in any other game feeling like they can’t play it because they can’t use the top tier characters. I mean, if we all felt like we had to do that, then everyone would be playing Chun in Third Strike. But we have plenty of Makoto and Dudley and Ken and Akuma players and such. Everyone in ST would have been playing O.Sagat, but ST has a huge variety of characters being played. Ryu and Sagat can be beaten with other characters even without using FADCs. So why are we focusing so much on just the two characters who can do it? Akuma, Balrog, Dhalsim, Bison, and Zangief are all viable characters, none of which need FADCs. Not only that, but Sagats haven’t been placing high in ANY tournament of late, not even SBO. Top 8 at Evo had no Sagats, and top 8 at WCW only had 1, I believe.
I still 100% disagree with this statement. You don’t need FADCs to reach the upper echelon of play. Yeb beat people more on the fact that no one knew how to fight Gen. Choi fell for “tricks”. He didn’t die because of FADCs. It’s like saying Ken wins ST matches because of Low Short x 2 into Super, not because he was SMART enough to find a way to land it.
Yeah, I focus on FADCs because everyone brings it up. “Oh, I don’t wanna play SFIV 'cause I don’t wanna learn FADCs!” Like I said, then learn one of the OTHER 23 CHARACTERS.
Like I said, Bison’s got 'em too. Fei Long’s got crazy Link Combos as well. Everyone in ST uses Links. Why are the Links in SFIV so much more offensive? And one more thing I have to add: one of the reasons we don’t see stupid Link Combos in ST is merely because Low Shorts can’t chain into Low Jabs. If they could, you’d see more of those combos. Ryu could do Low Short, Low Jab, Low Strong into Fireball in ST just like he could in SFIV. I believe Cammy CAN link Low Jab into Low Strong… it’s like a one frame link. So if I could chain Low Short into Low Jab, I could learn Low Short, Low Jab, Low Strong into Cannon Drill. It’s just that a limitation of the ST system prevented it from happening.
As I said, it’s because we’re used to them by now. Comboing into Supers has become a more common practice in ST, whereas it was nigh impossible before. Some of those Combos used to be deemed not worth trying, but now they are standard in high level play. I dunno, my impression of SFIV is that it is perhaps the scrubbiest Street Fighter to date BECAUSE it requires the least amount of dexterity. So many things are so stupidly simple to do now in that game that I just don’t see manual dexterity being a prohibitive factor.
When was Ryu vs. Boxer a bad match up in SFIV??
And finally, I do wanna address one thing: I’m not trying to say SFIV is better than ST. In fact, I think ST is still a FAR superior game. SFIV has a TON of stupid things in it (Ultras, brain-dead Reversals, code Shortcuts, etc.) that I really can’t stand. There are plenty of reasons to criticize SFIV.
I’m mainly getting all riled up here because I’ve heard from several people that SFIV is “too execution focused” to be desired to play. And that really just makes me frustrated because all of the SFIV players I know think SFIV is stupidly easy to play. My brother is totally execution delinquent (sorry, bro), and even he can do FADCs. I’m serious. He’ll never Combo into a Super in ST in his life. It’ll just never happen. He has trouble getting off all three hits of the Rekka Ken in ST. But he can do FADCs. So I just don’t get it.
SFIV has a ton of flaws. I agree. But the complaints I see registered towards SFIV, to me, are fairly ironic, even outside of the “execution barrier.” I’ve seen people complain about the throw system. I’ve seen people complain about the easy Reversals.
But these are the same people getting angry at the VST lovers. They keep saying, “Dude, it’s not ST. It’s HDR. Get used to it. It’s a NEW game. Learn the new things!” And then they complain about SFIV because Throws don’t work the same as they do in HDR. Because Reversals don’t work the same way they do in HDR. Dude, SFIV is a new game. It’s not HDR. Get used to it. Learn the new things.
SFIV is not a great game. But it’s not even remotely a bad game. Not even CLOSE. Compare it to the other games that started series out. Alpha 1 was terrible. CvS1 got ruined by Nako and 4 ratio 1’s. Street Fighter III was unplayable because Parrying was stupidly easy. For the first game in the series, SFIV is pretty damn good. Maybe I’m biased because I’ve seen a beta of SFIV and I’ve heard stories about other beta versions of SFIV, and the fact that it has turned out as playable and as balanced as it has is nothing short of a miracle to me. I’m absolutely flabbergasted that the game has captured hearts as much as it has, given that I was confident with almost 100% certainty that the game was going to suck eggs like CFE. I was pleasantly surprised by the game.
So anyhow, I’ve derailed this thread long enough. Feel free to flame me in response, but this will have to be the last I speak of the topic or else this can carry on forever, and no one here needs to sit and read people debating the merits and flaws of SFIV. This is the HDR forum, after all, so I’ll shut up now.
Apologies, and carry on!
- James
Playing SF4 competitively at the highest levels does require muscle coordination in excess of what most people can expect to achieve without prodigious training and practice.
I would be willing to bet that people who don’t care for the Marvel vs. games are also turned off by what they see in world class SF4 matches.
Supers (and juggling) never felt artificial to me. Supers are more like EX specials, they’re just special attacks that hit more and do more damage. Supers were never any more offensive to me than ST Sagat’s 5-hit fierce TU.
Arbitrarily canceling special attacks in mid-execution, though, that sh!t has always rubbed me raw.
lol that post is so epic i think it should be its own sticky. And do you work for Capcom? I read your ideas for game fixes for the system and each character for SF4 and they were near-PERFECT.
I don’t think HDR will ever die, really, cause of the staple of like 50 og’s who show up to every major and LOVE ST and SF2 in general.
You guys should really make a new thread though on ST vs SF4 or something. I’ll say this much, though.
I’m GARBAGE at doing dexterous things (lol i played team scrub in marvel cause I couldn’t rom to save my life) so I decided to try two characters that don’t need them (Balrog and Blanka) and really really liked how Blanka played. Every game has easy-mode characters when it comes to execution-barriers, I never saw high-levels of execution in a game that you like playing as a deterrent to play said game. You’ll enjoy a game if you want to enjoy it, simple as that.
However, If I wasn’t so terrible at life, I would main Sagat and rape foo’s with my kara-canceling crazyness and FADC>ultra for easy 60% life, lol.
K, next time I fire up SF4, I’ll want to enjoy it.
:rolleyes:
Fixed.
What’s ironic is in a thread about keeping the HDR community alive, we had a debate about SFIV. Lol, maybe we should all STFU and play the game we want to play. If James wants to play Milo, but milo doesn’t want to play SFIV, then you guys can theory fighter it. :lol:
Here’s the reality Milo: You’ve reached a ceiling as far as execution comes (whatever this ceiling is, only you know) and you’ve decided that this magical ceiling is the official cutoff line for games that are and are not too complicated.
The truth - most people suck at doing low forward into fireball let alone super commands. Also some people are better at certain things than others. I’m pretty good at ‘buttons’ - I can do complicated button combos (roll cancel electricity for example) but I suck at the joystick part. My left hand is retarded.
So yes, the highest level of SF4 shows people showing off the best of the best but so did HF. Watching Watson sweep guile’s whiff low forward requires wayyy more execution that 90% of the people on this board.