See that’s what I’m talking about. Mavrick, let’s talk and see what we need to do to make it happen.
Silver Rain got what I’m saying.
If I was choi type level then maybe justifying the trip and expenses to attend a tourney wouldn’t be so bad. However, I’m not that level, so going to a tourney for me is a waste of time, since I’m essentially paying for a match or two, and maybe get some casuals.
Would you buy a plane ticket/drive a few states over just for that?
Hey Silver, I’ll join your WWL when I get an xbox, if its still around.
That’s a bad attitude. Choi won tournaments over time, not right away. The more tournaments you attend, the higher your chance is of winning.
The WWL is really taking off, I don’t think we’re going anywhere anytime soon… Get rid of that PS3 garbage and get over where the action is… we’ll be waiting on you. 
We’ve had some good times on our Tuesday Tourneys and watched some pretty cool stuff happen…
Jiggly is right though, no player just says, ‘what is this game thingy?’ and then wins. Practice is important, having an organization to measure those results and prep people is important. Raising the level of competition is important. Giving people without easy access to a credible tournament scene the ability to play quality competition regularly is important.
If you were involved in said organization and that said organization had an annual live tournament though in which people would come from all around pay a little extra money, then the social ‘scene’ aspect of the experience kicks in, gives the average player what they want, while providing the funds for what the ultra high-end hardcore want. Then everybody wins.
Yeah, that could be. As I mentioned earlier, time will tell.
Don’t get me wrong… I REALLY want HDR to make it. Many of the other members of the community are into sf4. However, I am part of the minorty that just can’t get into it. If HDR dies, I am S.O.L.
I just think we need to relalistic about how to do it. I could be very wrong about how to do that. It sems Decoy might be the goto guy for ideas on that. Maybe instead of saying “don’t let it die…” the subject of the thread should be “how to help it grow.”
It is a differnt mindset, at least for me.
That’s not what my point was, what I’m saying is should I pay out a few thousand attending tourney’s out of state, so that maybe someday I’ll start winning? Right now the closest tourney to me is in Ohio. Everyone keeps saying throw money in the pot to get good players to come. However, I can’t possibly justify coming out there at too great an expense regardless of how much you put in since i’ll only end up in the negative regardless of how much fun I have.
I’m on one of the extremes of the issue, which is more to say, that tourney’s aren’t feasible for me, since the value in experience from the event would not make up the value of the expenses in making it to the event. I’m not saying I woudn’t want to compete if I lived closer to such events, I’m saying that in my position, its unreasonable.
I’m more of a play because I want to, not so much I need an incentive to go out and play, like a tourney. If I end up never meeting any of you, then that sucks, but I guess that’s just how it will have to be. I’d rather see communities all over, which is most likely unrealistic. The set up for HDR at the arcade nearby is the same setup for IV. So even if I wanted to try to get people to play down there, I have to bring my own setup.
I don’t know, fuck it, we’ll see in a few years if you guys are even holding tourney’s and who knows maybe I’ll be the next guy you have to fight.
There’s always the WWL too.
Side questions:
How much is the general admission to EVO, Final Round, etc on average? $20? $25?
How much does it cost on average to enter a SF tournament on average?
What’s the average take home amount for 1st and 2nd place for these tournies?
Always been curious, never got a chance to go to one of these events.
Offline gatherings
One problem with HDR (and esp. ST) is that it’s still faster paced than any other game. You can win and lose matches really quickly. If you know you’re not great, it probably won’t be worth your while to travel 8 hours, “donate” $20, and go 0-2.
If anything, my ideal form of gatherings would be built around a few warmup matches, a tourney very early on (so no sandbagging) followed by plenty of casuals the rest of the night. I think it’s important to have local scenes (within 1-2 hours driving time) that meet up at least once a month to know where you stand, what you need to work on, and reflect on where you want to be. If you can find 2 other players around you, you’re good. If you have 3 or 4 others, you’re a force.
There used to be monthly ST/HDR tourneys in the MD/VA/DC area (from back when AE was released up until early this year) and I always used to look forward to them to gauge my progress. After being told by one of these tourney winners that online was a big help, I started practicing online, not caring about online results (and it really wasn’t possible back then in laggy Kaillera), but rather to do better in these offline tourneys. DGV was a big help for me in learning the shoto matches back then and I’m glad they’re finally getting into offline tourneys as well to prove their online pedigree (congrats at Denjin BTW; first tourney win?).
I don’t know about other folks but if I didn’t have offline results, I would have no idea whether the online tactics I was using were legit. The one thing I was always afraid of was whether my tactics worked offline. Without that certainty and without any real results available, I probably would have never continued with the game. I understand that some folks don’t care and that’s cool (since ST/HDR doesn’t have to be competitive for everyone) but if you’re hungry for the game, why not accompany your practice with live tourneys?
Potential players
As for growth from outside, let’s analyze how accessible this game is for anyone. Anybody owning a PS3 or 360 would have access (and hundreds of thousands indeed bought this game). Most fighting game players have access to one or the other (if not their own, then others’). On the other side, non-gamers are still the biggest potential pool of new players.
HDR’s $15 price tag is cheap enough that it would be an easy buy. Downloading the game requires online access but since so many players bought the game, it’s safe to say online access isn’t hampering the game. And since these purchasers have online access, they can also play online and see how the game works and how better players play.
Next, after they played it, would the players try to get better? If they searched for fighting game FAQs or tournaments, SRK would pop up. So they have access to the info needed to get good. They can also search Youtube and find plenty of high quality matches to analyze. Now, if these players were already on SRK or if they just searched for “street fighter tournaments,” Evo would pop up and they could see that there are tournaments held in the US.
So now that they know there are tournaments, will they go? If you go on any fighting game board on GameFAQs, it’s pretty clear folks at least know that tournaments exist. It’s unlikely that ignorance in fighting game competition has played a part. SRK and the tourneys mentioned there is well known among gaming communities. Among players who already know that tourneys exist, I doubt that they would get involved in a game, given they lacked the drive to even check one out in the first place. So now, the only question is: why don’t players attend?
As I mentioned (as did some before me), money, time, and insecurity are factors. Now, even with these hurdles, SFIV still does very well. Does any SFIV not know about HDR? Not from my experience; some may not know it well but they all know the basic SFII feel behind it. If they know about all that, then why don’t players attend HDR tourneys?
And that’s a tough question to answer. It could be the 2D visuals, it could be the simpler mechanics, it could be because downloaded titles aren’t regarded as worthy games, or, the most likely reason of all: they just don’t like how the game plays enough to seriously play it.
Inspiration
Is there a way to convince gamers to play ST/HDR? Sure, but is there any example of a player being coaxed into playing this game and suddenly developing a hunger to do well? Is a guiding hand in the face of an uncaring heart enough to move that heart into caring? I’m pessimistic on this point but if someone has had success stories in converting people over to ST/HDR, please share them.
But all that said, I think the reports of SFII dying are greatly exaggerated and have arisen mostly from folks unfamiliar with the scene’s history. From all I read, ST was not really played by anyone in the US back around 2003 (the dark days of dying arcade tourneys) yet ST tourneys still occurred at all majors with pretty much the same participation results as today. After AE and HDR (and to a lesser extent, CCC2), SF2 got a spike and then gravitated back to an unassuming but still respectable level. I don’t really see any less tourneys or tourney attendees nowadays than back when AE was released. It’d be great to have more players but this is ST’s normal state of being. So basically, I don’t really see a need to worry; just do the best you can to promote the game.
I think the best thing that ever happened for the ST scene was NKI’s Japan report and Q&A, which not only hyped up the game and its players but also provided a wealth of information on the game. Plus, he was a very reasonable and modest guy. He never promoted himself as an excellent player and rather than insulting others for posting ignorant beliefs, corrected them in a non-confrontational manner. If anybody here hasn’t seen those threads in their entirety, then stop reading my verbose drivel and start reading them up. It’s the reason behind why terms like chicken wing and neckbreaker are widely accepted.
It’s probably similar to how folks who started up on HDR view Sirlin as the man who revived ST (and he certainly deserves credit for the CCC2 port and spearheading the current-gen port/upgrade). I never needed anybody to hold my hand or push me into playing ST; along with personal interest, NKI’s report was my biggest inspiration. Is it possible a current blog of interesting tips and hype can generate more interest in offline ST/HDR?
Link?
NKI’s random Japan log!: http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/Japan.log.html
Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house: http://forums.shoryuken.com/printthread.php?t=97281&pp=10000
I’m trying to keep the scene alive in my own way (hosting SF HDR biweeklies in Auburn Hills starting on the 10th). I’ve put up a topic, linked it in my sig, advertised to my SF-playing friends, facebook-linked it, and asked Osirun to put it on PowerUp.
So far there’s been all of one reply.
I mean, come on. The first one is a week before SB4, which means that at the very least people should show up to get ready for that. I’m not sure whether that says more about HDR or the Midwest fighting scene, but either way it’s depressing.
I’d say your best bet is finding out who lives in your area that plays HDR first.
That seems like the most likely pool from which to draw people into your tournaments.
There are a number of us here in San Diego (and So. Cal) that know each other.
Some from WAY back in the day, some from meeting up at EVO.
Fatboy and Megaman (both in San Diego) have done a great job in trying to get things going starting with local casual game sessions.
And once that process catches a rhythm I expect a really solid (and highly skilled and very cool people) offline gaming group.
You might want to start the tourney scene off with casual game night in its place first.
Where local players can meet up, grub, drink, and get some fun offline gaming going.
A lot of it is figuring out who is in the community and finding who can play that way.
I think it’s less that and more just following the crowd. SFIV’s power truly is that EVERYONE PLAYS THE DAMN THING. I was at shglbmx’s place last night for the first time. It’s a local gathering in a garage. There may have been a total of 40 people there total throughout the night. FORTY!! That’s more than some local tourneys for other games! Everyone is playing the damn thing, and if you don’t, you’re left out. And a lot of players just don’t want to be left out.
It didn’t get release in Japan, I’d bet a ton of money on it, because it was tweaked by Sirlin and drawn by Udon. Probably more that it was tweaked by Sirlin. I mean, Capcom Japan probably considers SF2 almost like a sacred beast, born in the land of the Rising Sun. And sorry if this sounds totally racist, but they are probably none too pleased to allow an outsider to tweak a game to make it “better” than what they had. It’s probably almost blasphemy to them that it happened at all.
Disagree. Third Strike’s renaissance was predicated by the Japanese. The 5 on 5 tourney at Evo where they DESTROYED US with things we’ve never seen and the other video that was released where that one Makoto player pretty much kicked everyone’s ass where the whole “EY! EY! EY! EY!” thing originated from threw Third Strike, in America, into high gear. Guilty Gear’s community almost exclusively continues to survive because of the output from Japan, watching their great players do shit that blows our mind.
Yeah, games like MvC2 thrived here in America but not in Japan and games like VF thrive in Japan but not in America, but those are more the exception.
There is definitely a level of venom directed at HDR that does not exist for any other game, even from top players. I walked around at Evo and talked to a LOT of players who used to play VST at Evo all the time and asked them if they entered HDR. For some reason, the answer I get the most from people is, 'Man, fuck HDR." If I asked them about BlazBlue, the response would be “I don’t play it.” But for some reason, there is some level of vitriol directed towards HDR. And it ends up spiraling out of control because the people who love HDR get angry and get all uppity about the game, saying why it’s better than VST, which then makes the people angry at HDR even more angry.
Not to go into it again, but one of the reasons why HDR did not succeed was because HDR was not OBVIOUSLY better than VST, which is what it was supposed to be. And so a lot of people who loved ST basically thought, “This is what we held our breath for?” And thus, I think there is a lot of hatred towards this game.
But the problem is that GGPO is a direct competitor to HDR, so a lot of the people who came into the scene playing GGPO could also be the very people who are holding HDR back.
Not to go all psycho babble on everyone here, but this is actually one of the problems. SSF2T was something that we couldn’t change. So NO FOCUS was placed on the games flaws, only on its good qualities. When HDR was announced, it basically said, “We’re gonna fix EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG ABOUT VST with HDR.” What that did, in the end, was start to point out things that people didn’t like about VST, and started putting targets onto the game with areas that were BAD about it. It was the first time that VST was ever admitted to be hugely flawed. Most people knew it, but most people didn’t care.
Now if HDR had succeeded in being an OBVIOUS improvement over VST, we’d all be good. But it’s not, there’s no two ways to see it. It’s not an obvious improvement. And so now we end up with two flawed games, flawed for completely different reasons. And so now, the staying power of VST and HDR are both hurt really badly becaue now both games are seen as imperfect. The arguments as to which game is better NEVER focus on what the game did better, only on why the other game sucks more.
Now we’ve just ended up with a bunch of games that people aren’t pleased with.
Why is HDR that much better than SF4? Do you think your answers can convince SFIV players to switch? So is there any reason that can be said that will make sense to you? Not calling you out or anything, just pointing out that there is no such answer that will ever make sense to you.
You sure? Choi’s been winning a damn long time. Hahaha.
Look, I’m not trying to be all doom and gloom, but everyone needs to realize that the entire classic SF2 scene has been tainted by HDR. I’m not saying it’s because HDR is bad or anything, but it’s because it has brought to the forefront a lot of issues that were largely ignored and just accepted before. VST’s near unbreakable armor has been shattered, so there isn’t much left for the classic SF2 scene to ride on.
The only thing that can be done at this point is that the players just keep playing it. Even if it means you are the only ones for a long time, doesn’t matter. Just keep it alive. If interest resurges, it’ll resurge from some random source that most people here probably didn’t ever think of. Just keep playing the game. And find the people who also wanna play who already like the game. That’s the best thing anyone can do for the scene.
- James
I nominate James Chen for post of the year award.
Hell, man. You KNOW I’ll be there. Even if it’s just us. It fucking sucks that HDR doesn’t get run at the bi-weeklies we already have here. SF4 just overshadows everything. Anything I can do to help, just ask. I’ll try to get the word out about it, but it’s rough since I don’t know anybody IRL that plays HDR.
EDIT: Make sure you hit up the MI thread with the info, too:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=186016
In the meantime, if any of you xbox guys still play on GGPO, I might try it out.
I hit it up every now and then :china: ID’s the same on there as here.
If i can figure out how to forward ports on vista wtf!
Fair and true. But, I think that Alex V, Choi, J Wong, Ricky and many other top players train to be the best of the best and want to be the be recognized as the best players playing (i.e. National Champion/ World Champion) Their pursuit of the pole position in a vast player player base is why I claim/believe they ultimately seek status.