best quote of the week!
Hey Flook, you mentioned something about helping to write a guide? Any chance you can make her frame data accessible to us? I think it would probably help settle a lot of the conflicting opinions if nothing else. Also there are a lot of ‘perceived’ buffs and nerfs being mentioned when really they’re just changes…HPTK hitting more vertical is great as an anti air but it does f**k all when it comes to catching a back jump. Also the cr.mp buff is just a gimmick to me…everyone will see it and stop giving away free counter hits soon.
As far as placing her on the tier list, I don’t see how anyone can place her so highly. Balrog, Bison, Honda (and in my opinion, Blanka) are still going to cause her just as much trouble, having better matchups against characters I was even with before (Ryu, Sagat and the like) does nothing for me…all that ever mattered was the bad matchups
Well she can’t fair any worse against Rog now than she did in Vanilla IMO. I don’t think the negative burn kick frames will affect her a ton vs. Rog. The biggest reason Rog killed Viper was that his ground game totally raped hers and jumping back and pressing HP killed all of her air based game as well. I always thought that on wake up hitting Rog with burn kicks was like one of the only ways to remotely scare him from pressing buttons on his wake up to get away from shit though maybe with some new option selects it may not be as necessary. Improved c.MP should help her to counter hit jabs a bit better and not get whiff punished by c.HK as often but I don’t really see the matchup getting too much better just by slight footsie changes. Though Viper is one of those characters that’s purposely limited offensively/defensively because of her huge damage and stun output when she hits people. So you’ll just have to play it like most other matches that aren’t in her favor and just maximize the damage output whenever u get in. I doubt Rog does any more damage than he did in Vanilla (probably even slightly less) so that should help in that regard.
Oh and yeah I really don’t get how taking away frame advantage on something is going to help u vs. anyone but scrubs. Scrubs mash especially if they can feel a gap and sure that mind game will help you against scrubs but against good players frame disadvantage will just put u in situations where u have to guess for pressing an offense. MP thunder knuckles IMO will basically be of no use against Gief anymore unless he whiffs a lariat and u hit him from the max possible range. Though better c.MP I think should help make her footsies even stronger in that specific match then they already were. I think as long as you’re not fighting a grappler MP thunder knuckles will still be useful but u just wont get that advantage u used to after you hit the opponent with them. I guess that’s not a terrible trade if her footsies are better.
If Viper is in the top 5 she’ll be in the top 5 like Gief was. A character that’s very powerful in damage output and offensive abilities but still have a few glaringly bad matchups in Rog, Honda, Dictator and IMO still Gief. Though at the same time I also believe that none of the new characters will beat her so badly that she will lose to them (which is good) and as a matter of fact I think she almost on paper already goes even or beats more than half of them. She already kicked the shit out of all of the vanilla console characters minus Cammy and I think that will remain the same minus Rose who’s stronger poking game and serious strengths with Ultra 2 may cause a threat. Though Viper basically no longer loses to Sagat and at this point I would say she basically beats Sagat now…Akuma is defintiely even now which is awesome (no more braindead vortex) and yeah Ryu is done vs. Viper now.
Do you know if there were any changes to Rog at all. I checked and it seems minor if any. (oh i think his hit box is changed…dont remember from what to what?)
I guess the example I was thinking of involved a mp tk on tk, then they’ll be tempted to jab, and u can hit another .cmp into whatever…
now…after mp tk on hit, u have to either defend, throw, or back off…continual pressure seems harder in that one area.
I also wonder if the slower animation of hk bk would allow rog to headbutt or FA it easier
There were no real changes to Rog that I’ve heard that would affect the way Viper has to fight him. Especially considering I don’t see any reason yet why Rog should use Ultra 2 against Viper when Ultra 1 was already very scary for her (and super). Capcom figured not to change too much with Rog since the only characters he lost to were Sagat and Zangief. Rog was always known as one of those characters that had issues that kept him out of top tier but he was easily the best of the top mid and raped the vanilla console characters for the most part.
This is why I dont participate in discussions online subzero first of all do you even play the character? dont come in here calling everyone a pawn for listening to what I say about the character like I’m just some random ass person like you no I actually do stuff with her and my opinion im pretty sure has more credibility then yours(nobody goes to the rufus forums to tell everyone to not listen to justin or marn do they? im pretty sure this is the same thing)…also for the record ive been in NY playing people up here since super came out havent been back to FL so im pretty sure that my opinion of her isnt biased because im raping scrubs considering ive been playing people like sanford, marn, arturo and every other top player up here the whole time
Its pretty much a fact that shes a better character right now the problem is she is gonna be way harder to play if your viper was scrubby in vanilla your viper is useless now they got rid of her scrubby BK mashing game and gave her a solid ground game which is why she lost to half the cast before killing BKs is not gonna make the Balrog match up any worse because BKs were pretty much useless against Balrog to begin with…with that being said im done with this thread and im done talking about vipers changes if you dont like her get the fuck out of the viper forums you wont be missed on the threads or in tournaments either
That frame data is for Regular SF4 btw its not the new data the new data isnt out yet considering the mook comes out next week
PS - everyone needs to stop crying about match ups the only match ups that were actually stupid were balrog, gief, honda, ken the rest were really nothing to care about really blanka, akuma, ryu were not crazy hard match ups
Words that make me feel better
Well thats good to hear that she still plays well, i just hope i can see it.
I personally do respect the views of credible viper players, that is why I mentioned that at my level i cannot see the advantages she gains from c.mp. I’ve also stated that I pretty mcuh spam bk’s similar to marn, I guess thats why I’m also curious at what Marn/Sanfords opinions are on Viper. Especially Marn’s since he utilized the BK method to the max.
You mentioned that she has solid ground game, and as I mentioned before I’m obviously not at a level to appreciate the c.mp buff. What other ground game did she get a boost from?
C.hk? S.mk? c.HP?
Actually watching flash’s casual match against PR Rog, all the nerfs that viper received would not affect his playstyle at all. I was pretty surprised, and can understand that the nerf/buff she received will accomodate his playstyle. He didn’t pressure after the frame adv he got, but instead blocked. I guess thats the passive aggressive controlled style. Like I mentioned before I’ll stick with viper, and understand that all these changes are done already…so i just have to up my game and change play style, i never said i wont. its not going to be easy and its unfortunate she lost her frame adv’s.
Im surprised you didnt put akuma on the list of difficult opponents, I’ve seen time after time high level akuimas take out uryo…
Sanford says viper is GODLIKE now and Marn says shes good but he hates playing like me so since he cant spam BKs he says hes done with viper lol
she got the new strong and faster feints thats about it
good to know. im done with this topic, ill accept this and try to change up my style…
next time im in MI again we gotta get some matches.
Unles you moving to NYC now since ur like there for weeks lol
VERY interesting that you mentioned Ken, as I’ve been saying her matchup against him is much harder now. His consistent ultra and fast fireball bring him up to par with Ryu in this matchup, but he retains the extra benefits (fast DP recovery, kara throw, better rushdown, FPDP range to catch certain things…) You HAVE to play footsies against him now, but I can’t see where the damage comes from. I have her overhead for F+MK and low forward, and F+HK if I’m sure he’ll go low, but outside of that, I’m clutching at straws till I can hit him with a sweep or a random cr.hp. Can’t really make cr.mp work…any tips anyone?
honestly until i play top notch people with every other character, i don’t really see any match-ups change that big with the changes. Correct me if im wrong though. I still play him just about the same way i did in vanilla.
does it matter if she lost/gain anything? seriously if u really like c.viper u should take the good with the bad if u only like her just because in street fighter 4 u could spam BK’S or w/e then that just prove how lazy people are and lack of determination to just stop bitching and to just go practice like Flash signature say’s scrub’s will find away to bitch and moan about something then to just accept t and get better…or something like that LOL but bottom line is f u dont like c.viper changes then stop playing as her…have a good day
Don’t like having to put shit out like a dick, but that’s the only way you can get a point across sometimes. Really all i’m trying to do is get everyone to stop crying about shit they can’t fix, and learn that her changes aren’t detrimental. You don’t have to change your entire gameplay like Gen does, unless your entire gameplan was bk and tk spam. Start thinking about how you can use her new properties to your advantage instead of just crying about them, that is wasted energy. Now you have to learn the entire character, not just what’s spammable. I have much more success with Super Viper than i ever did with Vanilla.
Every char has bad matchups, that’s the beauty of SF. IMO, her bad matchups got better for her. The only fight that i feel is truly stupid stlll is Rog, but honestly i don’t have nearly enough practice against Rog to make a fair judgement.
The frame data should be available through the link in the Prima guide any day now, it was submitted a week ago. The changes for Viper’s stuff i’ve posted through this thread already. To recap:
ground BKs on block:
lk -2
mk -1
hk 0
EX -12
MP TK -2 on block
I’m done with this thread. It’s old news. Super is now out, no more changes or alterations to discuss.
I think Viper got better I just don’t like the MP TK nerf, the reversal gap between c.mp/mk xx tk is larger making it easier to reversal through. Also no longer being +3 on hit of mp tk is a big change against 3 frame normals, mp tk was her best tool against characters who had 3 frame normals, because of the frame advantage it forced characters like Ryu, Balrog, Chun, Sagat, or whoever to give your offense more respect than fearlessly mashing a 3 frame normal to stop you from continuing offense. Whatever though, I’ll mix in more feints up close. Seeing as her damage is nearly the same and her ultra juggle damage still hits like a truck she’s become the damage queen in this game.
Ya, and i wasn’t trying to troll, I just find it funny how a lot of ppl on this forums bend and twist every time you say something. You are very good, much props, but ppl need to get a mind for themselves. Viper is a weaker version of herself, that being said, she is relatively better now that everyone else is nerfed, but now everyone is forced to play and EXTREMELY passive aggresive version of what she once was, stuff like how martin (admitting he likes to play random) likes to play, won’t get you very far anymore sicne you just blatantly get stuffed/punished.
Specifically flash, I never said they were pawns for listening to you, they’re pawns for changing their mind everytime you change yours, I know I respect ur opinion on viper for the most part, but you’re always randomly changing your mind about viper. if you were to say right now that you changed your mind and she sucks, ppl would hype it up, and you know that. Alls i said was that she has fewer safe options, and mainly making the point of ppl should try things out for themselves as well as discuss here too. Kinda funny, I don’t see y you get so offended, everything i said about matchups you just restated in different words. Besides if i recall the week before final round you were crying 'bout viper then the weekend of you were happy because you got the great epiphany that if you block more you take less dmg… C’MON SON, that’s the most obvious shit in fighting games ever. But i have no right to say i think she has less options…got it. You don’t really participate in the forums anyway, you’re just dropping crumbs to the pawns most of the time anyways. Basically, you cry bout her just as much as anyone else, but you’re a better player so you think it gives you the right to bitch when you get upset, newsflash, everyone gets upset when they lose.
TLDR - I like more options availble, no one likes nerfs lets be honest, and now she has less options, you just have to be super patient.
lastly, about spamming, you can never spam and beat good ppl, and I’m not some moron playing ppl in g1 thinking i’m good. After playing a bit more, she’s better relatively, but less options are less options, period. Thats the only thing I was trying to say. I could have been nicer about it.
btw, if anyone wants to play some matches, to prove i’m not a braindead spammer, i’ll be more than happy to oblige.
I cant stop adding to this post. IMO, sjc fadc seems mucho easier now. feints are def faster. short short fk seems hard to link to me tho.
It might just be me getting better, but trade FR TK dash ultra seems easier now, might be the trajectory of the fierce tk making them juggle a bit higher making the timing more lenient?
ps. honk honk, see ya doug.
close this thread .go play SUPER
mp TK isn’t 0 on hit. Just do Viper/Viper in the training room, use mp TK and hit, hold jump for both, and watch the Viper that used mp TK jump first. The new Prima frame data is probably right about Viper’s mp TK still being +3 on hit.
I have not posted on here for a bit because i didnt have a ton to say and it was nice to hear from some very solid proven players input on the matter,and from all i have heard she is more then solid and made out very clearly ahead.
That being said this is grounds for optioning up views,but really man not at the expense of saying everyone on here is a pawn or scrub or whatever,if your reading this now it’s an obovious effort to up your game,and we thankfully have some of the best in america willing to come and contribute,something that alot of the other char’s being played at high levels do not have i might add.
Alot of the higher level tourny players are alot more insular then the vipers have been and for that i personally am grateful,it saves me both time and effort not in learning but in knowing first what’s really good and building a solid foundation from that.
Fairly every SF incarnation has been changed and altered from the previous,so it goes to say that she would be facing changes,to expect otherwise is more then a little backwards thinking.
Last thing i do want to add is if your game in a large way revolved around mashing or spamming with Viper of all chars you were playing the wrong char to begin with,i hear both sagat and ryu have new ultras you should prolly check them out.
So to Flash,Flook,Marn,Deviljin and any others that have tried to assist in building that foundation and up all of our games you have my gratitude,and your input and insight is why i started this thread to begin with.
To the rest of you just wanting to take your chance to E tear down the people putting in the work,your still free ALL day guys and one internet point does not change that.
i don’t think the nerfed flame kicks are that big of a deal. a lot of characters can deal with flame kick spam much better in ssf4. rufus, bison, el fuerte and abels second ultra pretty much stops viper from spamming flame kicks like an idiot now. faster level 2 focus attacks also helps against flame kicks
flame kicks still work but you can’t win just spamming that all day any more. in fact, i dont think you can win off flame kicks in vanilla sf4 either.