i still think the U2 is worthless. u know a well time jab in the air can knock u out of it?she by far isnt the best when people like balrog and akuma come into mind. just wish they did something bout that u2. who the heck tested her when they came up with it
I think Flash is attesting mostly that the changes to the other characters and the overall game make her better despite her being toned down. I haven’t really felt much anything about her that seems to be like “oh wow this really makes her better” except for her HP knuckle being a bit stronger.
Well, medium knuckle is punishable on block now by Ryu/Cammy/Chun’s supers. Probably more stuff but I haven’t tested it yet.
i cant tell if hp tk is strong, i get thrown outta that like everytime i do it…
yea thats what i was thinking too, both porkloaf and flash are saying shes good in comparison to others nerf essentially. Thats what I gathered.
The thing is, I just played a brand new Adon and Guy and my friend who sucks at SF, just beat me. Adon’s move beats out all of vipers it seems like. Are any of his moves punishable withviper? I started to ex seismo his jag tooth.
It just seems like she has so much time to recover now. Her ex bk is super unsafe on block and whiff. At least before it was a tighter time to punish her.
Whiffed bks hurt…and seems like she recovers slower.
Yea i noticed bk’s hit box a bit different too, as if it hits less…
I think she just went up one level of being less safe, and gotta play more carefully than ever.
Me too… it doesn’t feel any better than before. However, the hitbox seems different now as I am sometimes able to trade with Ryu’s meaty c.mk now.
I agree with you about ultra 2, it’s not just there for cool factor, you can jump in on people when you have it because they should be expecting to eat it if they do something. the only thing i don’t like is the near misses i get with it. I was talking to kensou since he’s dropped viper and picked up guy and he’s saying guy has some serious pressure, haven’t gotten to play him yet but he’s got previous viper experience so i guess he’d know something about how it would play out
Viper got several unnecessary nerfs and no real buffs. HPTK is slightly improved as long as you use it at the last possible moment, it’ll beat out most jump ins…throwing it out on reaction to a jump in is asking to trade though and you still get thrown out of it if used as a regular dp (i.e. panic move). She lost all of her legitimate frame traps. It’s a shame she only has one EX move worth using and I’d like to be able to EX BK into ultra in the corner. That’s all fine, it just increases her risk and lowers her reward which sucks…however…
…What’s with all this talk of Viper’s damage going down? FFF does the SAME 346+ damage as before - the only damage nerf I’m aware of is her ultra which went from circa 550 to 480…and that happened across the board. At the very least, she’ll take great advantage in the fact that she doesn’t die in 2 combo any more, and still stuns/get’s massive damage off her BnB’s. She lost her frame traps but I still get them to work (even on players that know the matchup) because she has an answer for each follow up (bait a dp, dp a jab, ex seismo a poke or mp xx feint/overhead or…just f**king block etc)
Not a fan of all the bitching over stuff that doesn’t matter, how about working out what we’re gonna do about Rog and Honda…I can’t see any changes/tools she got to deal with those matchups, but for any of the good players here, those are the ones that matter…Rog basically got 20 damage knocked off his headbutts which is nothing…and plus frames added elsewhere…
So do you still stand by these reasons as to why she is better, Flash? Seems to me we are in agreement about the BKs in the quoted post, where you include that among the changes that are godlike, but you call it a negative effect now (which i still disagree with. Just means you have to treat the situation different, and different is not necessarily worse). Has your opinion changed on anything else? If so, please bring it up and we can all discuss it and be a useful forum and improve, which is really all i’m trying to do with the posts i make, regardless of whether or not i come off as a dick sometimes.
Not trying to start a grudge or anything, so don’t take it that way. I just don’t see her BK nerf the same way everyone else does. I just see it as making us use that tool differently.
yea having only ex seismo as the only ex move sucks, the recovery on ex tk and ex bk is immense…
I wonder if Uryo didn’t exist they woulda buffed the hell outta viper?
try sjc ultra…its like 69% of what the damage used to be.
Her FFF into ultra, when someone is near 30-40% mark, with u at 50-60% charged ultra…the ultra probably takes off less than a Guy’s bushin throw or whatever its called, Guys throw is SPD strength…
Im still trying to figure things out…a lot of other peoples nerfs help…but there are still lots of crazy matchups out there…
Well im not going to speak for flash, but imo hp tk has barely any buffs, if the timing is more strict its ever so slightly.
Yes the jump is slower, i noticed getting dp’d out of things, and had to adjust to a new safe jump and cross jump on the back throw.
damage nerf is probably better than avg, wouldnt say make out like a bandit especially if u compare it with the new characters or there are characters with damage nerfs like rufus/akuma, he’s still a tank. In comparison to the new characters cody, dudley guy, they all seem to be able to do nice damage.
Her c.mk is NOT fixed, and i cant tell the difference in sweep.
In regards to BK, u just have to be really careful to use it now. Before u had to be careful, a ryu player reacting with c.mk owns bk’s… reaction FA…etc…now its significantly slower and easily punished…having said all this i was able to beat my ryu firned that i had trouble in the past…my guess is his because of ryu’s nerfs…
Her moves were pretty slow and sometimes unsafe in the past: BK (whiffed, c.mk, FA), tk’s blocked and startup, ex tk startup, and ex bk recovery on whiff and block…
But now pretty much everything ive listed above increased in unsafeness… i dotn even want to ex bk otu of situations anymore…
Along with this she lost her offense pressure with Tks and Bks… watching couple of ur vids flook, almost all mp tks on hit u followed up with a poke or continual pressure…now u cant…
i dont remember u doing any bk and using those frame trap/adv. But u would often still see uryo or kyabetsu, or dashio, sj low trajectory hk bk to fly into an opponent then continue pressure…throw…s.mp, c.mp etc… now those are gone too…
seems like nerfs were really noticeable and significant. and the buffs are barely recognizable and unsure of…with the exception of c.mp… even then just faster recovery…
Im hoping im missing something here and theres a new method/style of playing that can optimize her current abilities…well…i guess thats the end of bk adn tk spams…which is good…just unfortunate we lost that frame adv for pressure.
Anyone feel like the hitbox for BK has been changed? I feel like its more difficult to cross people up with it.
yep! this is the new and improved viper.
Oh yea with adon all versions of that wall dive he does is punishable by ex seismo . bait it with feints.
yea ex seismo is a great counter for tooth, pretty much can counter all 3 distances with the ex seismo…
but have u tried cross him up with j.hk from back throw, or regular cross? his ex tiger knee iprevents my mixups… his jaguar kick? the one that slices down, stops my air atks… hes interesting to fight, if u play defensively and bait his tooth, i think it will be better…
I think all these ultras in the new game are gonna hurt vipers a game a bit. A lot of chars can choose ultras that shut down vipers specials (slightly nerfed specials) now which she obviously relies on (well used to rely on) to create offense. Like bisons psycho abortion punishes seismos and bks for example… Im liking her new jump arc on first impressions though.
First of all I think that the only reason why everyone is crying about viper is because lets face it all your scrubby, gimmicky, spammable shit isnt as good as before which is good imo step your shit up and stop crying that you cant spam special moves brainlessly anymore and start playing SF lets look at viper
Buffs :
- new low strong its amazing
- faster dp its really hard to get grabbed out of, the angle that it goes is arched alittle higher now too so it doesnt hit as far forward
- Because her FP TK is faster and her FP TK feint is alot faster which is way better for a ground game
- a new reg jump the arch is really nice for stuff
- damage has been nerfed a bit but compared to other characters its a buff in the end
- Back throw has more push back(this is a buff its just harder to use)
- F.mp goes higher then before(not 100% sure but ive gone over things that I never did before)
Nerfs -
- BKs have been nerfed to shit
- MP TK is even on block
Yes I still stand by what I said I believe viper is gonna be top 5 in the game for free still her BK nerf was more then I expected when I posted it the move is still good but its not suppose to be used the same way anymore you cant just spam that shit like a scrub anymore shes better because her ground game is actually a problem now low strong was really all she needed everything else was just icing on thee cake imo if you dont agree then drop her I on the other hand think she is ridiculous right now you just cant spam specials anymore and have to play…basically like me lol Passive aggressive while actually using normals and playing SF
Strong words, sir. Strong words.
I was thinking of switching to Guy with SSF4, and while I really enjoy playing him and learning how to do stuff with him, I wouldn’t be surprised if I found myself going back and trying to step up my game with Viper. Even not knowing anything about her move alterations, I figured she would be a better character in this game on the premise that compared to most characters in the game her overall damage output didn’t get nerfed nearly as hard.
Correct me if I’m wrong, Flash, but it seems to me that a lot of her old bad match-ups are a little better because of overall damage nerfs, except for maybe Bison and Balrog. Any insight on that?
i’m convinced shes top 5. everyone getting a damage nerf except her and a buffed c.mp has me convinced.
i think she does more damage than rufus right now. she and dudley have to most damaging combos now it seems.
Yea theres for sure a good amount of scrubbiness in me and i’ve adapted accordingly. But its unfortunate that they would take off so much advantage. All i wanted to point out was the nerfs and lack of buffs…shes still competitive and like everyone else ill have to adjust and adapt.
Another reason is that i somewhat adapted marn’s random bk rushdown…ill be affected in a decent way.
As for the Buffs you’ve mentioned this is my take on it. I want to view it as realistically as I can and not be blinded by viper pride. Also note that at my level, i obviously do not see what flash sees. Perhaps hes right. After some play testing, and stopped spamming bks and tks and played more safe…she seemed steadily…solid…but i still believe u coulda played that way in sf4 wihtout the nerfs…minus a solid c.mp…thats why i thought vanilla viper > ssf4 viper…anyways heres my take on the list…
Buffs :
- new low strong
Not enough info (frame data) to truly confirm or analyze to say its a buff or nerf.
- faster dp its really hard to get grabbed out of. If so, is the start up is at 6 frames?
- F.mp goes higher then before(not 100% sure but ive gone over things that I never did before)
Subjective (change that we dont know if it is better or worse until further testing.)
-the angle that it goes is arched alittle higher now too so it doesnt hit as far forward
- a new reg jump the arch is really nice for stuff (i would probably agree, but to be safe i’ll place it here as not sure yet)
- Back throw has more push back
-seems like ex tk is nerfed as well. slower recovery
Nerfs -
- BKs speed decrease
- BK longer recovery time
- BK spd-able on block
- MP TK is even on block
- MP TK has no advantage on hit
- damage has been nerfed not as much as others…but still nerfed…
- ex bk nerf
idk if this was in vanilla because i never tried. could u link 2mp twice and also 5HP into 2mp.
can you clarify?
you can do s.mp into c.mp and c.mp into c.mp
2mp twice, is 4 mps
5 hps into 2 mps? what are u talkigna bout?