i think that’s all anybody can do right now
I think I already touched on U2. It’s already too good as is. Increasing it’s speed to 1+0 or increasing its range will push Balrog too far out of his character archetype. The better way to buff his U2 is by buffing his other tools. Suggestions like Jav1ts made about bringing back a mashable headbutt, reducing the recovery on a whiffed lk.ru (think hold traps), will make U2 incredibly more viable. The LAST thing Balrog needs is characters to be afraid to get close to him because he might grab them imo. If headbutt gets its recovery back, then we can actually do something full screen. Almost 75% of the cast can build meter full-screen Balrog CAN NOT.
There are a ton of better buffs that’ll make him better that don’t involve U2. It’s still my opinion that U2 has not been fully explored by any stretch of the imagination. I’ve done some research/exploration and I feel that his toolset doesn’t support U2 well enough. If capcom contemplates any changes to U2, they will most likely make it totally unviable and will ignore the more useful buffs.
The goal to the changes is to make him more viable, not to create a new character. You’ve also got to consider that there’s a incredibly strong possibility the ENTIRE roster will be balanced. Balrog’s pros and cons in 2012, may not matter in 2013 if everyone else receives nerfs/buffs in Balrog’s favor.
I usually agree with most of what you say 3nigmatic- you certainly know what you’re talking about in all things considering Balrog. That being said, I have to disagree about not wanting Capcom to buff his U2 with the update. You make some great points about needing to make him more viable with his other moves, and I especially like the idea of reducing the recovery time of his whiffed lk.ru and headbutt, but I still don’t see how those things would help land a successful U2 if players can still jump out after the screen freeze.
Maybe I’m just not an advanced enough player, but the only time I use Dirty Bull is when I’m goofing off with friends or trolling online, and that’s because i like the name of the move and I think the animation is funny when I actually land it. Rog’s U1 is just way too useful of a tool to use with its ability to be comboed into from his headbutt. I really think something needs to be changed to U2 to make it a viable option, and either increasing the range or speed is the only thing I can think of, or maybe making it comboable somehow (if that happens maybe scale the damage but not the stun?).
I think you are correct in saying that U2 hasn’t been fully explored, but I also think that’s because all you have to do is jump after the screen freeze to get out of it. I’ll admit, my understanding of frame rates and all the other technical aspects of the game is not nearly as strong as a lot of people who post here, but, I think there is a general consensus that Rog’s U2 is pretty much useless as it is now.
Don’t take this the wrong way- I’ve learned a lot from your posts and respect you as a Balrog mentor just from the advice you’ve provided on this forum, but I have to disagree with not wanting some kind of buff to Dirty Bull.
Do you know of any setups for the move as it is right now that I could maybe practice? Would an FADCed swingblow into level 2 crumple comboed into U2 work? And would it be worth the meter?. Are there any blockstrings that could end with a successful U2? Again my knowledge of frame rates isn’t very strong, so these are honest questions- please don’t make fun 
EDIT: Ok, I feel a little stupid- I just checked out the “How to Land a U2” thread posted by MotorCity a while back and he goes into detail about comboing after a swingblow FADC level 2. Should have read that thread first before suggesting it here- I guess it does work. I still would like to know some more setups to practice, and I still think it should be buffed.
Lets say Balrog’s U2 gets buffed for more range, that means that generally everything that’s -1 or -2 (everything not punishable by cr/st.lp but in range) becomes punishable. Everything. Fei Longs Rekka’s mid-screen (which can be punished by U2 in the corner), rush upper on block, all kinds of things become useless against Balrog when he has U2. I’m not saying he will jump up the tier list, but he’s not Gief, he has crazy mobility and a 10f jab. He could easily be seen as being too powerful up front and quite possibly a the game develops with the changes drop to bottom tier.
Let’s say Balrog’s U2 gets buffed for more speed (1+0). something as simple as cr.mp xx mk.ru which is +1 on block, delayed U2 becomes almost a guaranteed setup, cr.mp xx lp.ds FADC U2 becomes a guaranteed setup whether the opponent is blocking or being hit (always at least -1 after a FADC). So many things become incredibly more viable. Balrog is no longer looking to force the opponent to press buttons, he’s become something different, wayyy too good. He will almost become un-fun. That’s just my opinion though.
There are a lot of silly ways to land U2, a lot of them in my frame traps 2 video. Yes. you can jump out of U2, that’s a given, but that’s a hidden strength of U2. If you can force your opponent to wait for the flash, they’re standing still, not pressing any buttons, you are in control of the match. Or if they jump preemptively or DP, you get free damage.
From the perspective of the use of U2, take into account crouch-tech. Most of the cast has tools to deal with a crouch-tech, think about frame traps and tech traps. One of Balrog’s strongest assets is his poking and frame trapping game, but at best he can only 50/50 a crouch-tech. Super is 8f and Ultra is 11f at their fastest to blow up a crouch-tech, ex.hb is also hella slow, armored dash punches can be beat with invincible cancels, meaties can telegraph and frame traps can lose to stand-techs. It’s easy to counter balrog’s reads against crouch-tech, compare balrog’s options to any shoto’s simple delayed dp fadc fwd dash, 100% blow up, 100% safe in most situations. U2 gives Balrog an unbeatable option: you can actually blow up crouch-techs 100% given your read is good. (Example: Blown up crouch-tech against fuerte)
You have to play Balrog differently to get U2, you can’t play him the same. Given U2 isn’t as useful as U1 in about 80% of his matches. I feel the Balrog players who can end matches without using U1 can replace the “threat” of U1 with super and be just as successful if not more with U2 given U2 can close matches much earlier where U1/super cannot.
Ok, that makes sense, and I guess I need to practice more using him differently. My biggest problem is probably with execution anyway, and I need to fix that before anything.
But still! What’s wrong with Balrog being wayyy too good???
I saw someone, somewhere, suggest changing/adding an Ultra that does something similar to Juri’s U2, where it would increase Rog’s speed, maybe defense, and allow combos to link that otherwise wouldn’t. That would be something fun to play with, yeah? Rog in (even more) Pissed-Off mode?
Hi guys, I searched capcom unity threads and tried to compile a buff list for most characters, based on the sugestions posted there.
The idea is - stronger characters will receive less buffs, weaker ones more, and top tiers mostly nothing.
I will post the entire buff list on capcom unity on week 5.
This is Balrog’s list:
Balrog
- Dash Swing blow (overhead): reduce the start up by 3 frames (19-20-20-20)
- Dash Low: reduce the start up by 2 frames (11-12-12-12); add +2 blockstun for normal versions (-6/-8/-9)
- TAP: - reduce the start up by 4 frames (26)
- level 2 gets +2 hitstun (+1); level 3 gets +4 hitstun (0)
- reduce the charging time for the higher levels; the last level crumples the opponent
- LP Dash straight: +2 hitstun (0)
- Dash Upper: reduce the recovery on whiff
- Ultra 1: Fix it so that the last hit does not whiff
- Dash Low Smash: reduce the start up by 1 frame (11-12-12-12);
- Ex Dash Low Smash: +1 blockstun (-2)
- cl st HP: +1 hitstun (3)
Explanations:
[details=Spoiler]
- Overhead: This move is amazing when it hit’s but at high level it is not so common. I agree with the negative and positive frames it currently has but I would like the total startup to be reduced. The regular version of this move can easily be beaten by mashing jab or short. When at a high level you can throw, ultra or super punish. Giving it a faster start up will not make it broken but will give it more reasons to actually use this move.
- Dash Low: Currently the move is extremely underused because it is very slow and has terrible recovery.
- TAP: Change the properties of TAP so that it is more like ST. Right now TAP is completely useless at anything beyond level 1 charge. The improved startup will allow Balrog to rushdown a lot more as well.
- Dash Straight: Balrog will be able to continue his pressure once it connects.
- Dash Upper: This would allow for the classic ST mixup of throw, safe headbutt, or do nothing after whiff rush upper.
- Ultra 1: Too many times as a Balrog player, I will successfully Ultra through a fireball but the last hit (the big launching uppercut) whiffs and they can retaliate with their own ultra.
- Dash Low Smash: It breaks armor which is great, but it’s slow startup leads to to be beaten by focus attacks, which is really disconcerting as it’s the fastest move we have to break focus baiters.
- Ex Dash Low Smash: For some reason the frames on block were changed on this move to make it punishable from Super to AE. With the current mental game incorporated into street fighter it would be nice to have a faster armor breaking move to throw off people who use too many focus attacks for pressure and help for Balrog to become less linear and predictable by his opponent.
- cl st HP: for combo potential. [/details]
Would you agree with this ? anything broken/ too strong ?
I think cl st HK should make the opponent stand on counter hit.
Lol Emanuel…
balrog will be instant top tier with those sugestions.
lp dash straight to only be -1 on block… so crazy
TAP being safer the longer you charge it could be good. if they just buffed that it’d probably be a big enough buff depending on the numbers.
There’s no mention of modifications to headbutt, Jav1ts recommendations are really good IMO, but they’re a bit radical. At the least we should get our recovery back on whiff.
Lp Dash straight will remain the same on block - the buff only aplies on hit (hitstun) - it will be 0 on hit, but the same on block.
I read his sugestions and I included some of them. Regarding the headbutt, some balrog players disagreed with this change.
I’m also not sure if this should be reverted - Balrog has good answers to fireballs, I don’t think he needs another tool to fight FBs.
Making the move have less recovery would mean it would be more spammable. I think Balrog should be punnished for whiffing this move. Plus, Headbutt is a really great move right now, both as a combo ender and as an antiair, I’m not sure if he needs a buff for this move. I would rather improve his tools that are underused.
Take this into consideration: headbutt has less invincibility (only upper body on non ex, full body on ex) and more startup (8f/10f/12f versus 3-4f) than a dragon punch, but recovers slower than Ken’s lp.dp and CANNOT be FADC’d. Headbutt has never been spammable (Jav1t’s suggestions for changes aside) and has ALWAYS been punishable. Reducing recovery for headbutt allows Balrog an “actual” way around fireballs that doesn’t require him to jump, drop charge, or make a poor decision and ex through (or TAP through like a dumbass). It also gives him a way to build meter by whiffing an attack and not being able to be punished…full screen.
A lot of the top tiers can “spam” specials to build meter: Ken lp.dp, Ryu fireball, Akuma Tatsu, C. Viper burn kick, Adon tiger knee Jaguar kick and the list goes on. This means that Balrog has to engage to build meter so forth and so on. Increasing headbutt recovery limits him at a fundamental level that we’ve simply gotten used to.
Ok, what about something in between - we reduce recovery for Hb, but not to Super level - say, reduce recovery by 4 frames.
They should give him a Divebutt. Like at the apex of a jump, hit down and a punch button and he does diving headbutt, kinda like T. Hawk’s Condor Dive. But it should be called Divebutt.
Actually, they probably shouldn’t give him that move at all. But yeah, decrease recovery on HB please.
I dunno, vanilla headbutt was -13/-12 on block, that’s punishable by just about every ultra in the game, EVERY ultra in the game (well maybe not Abel’s U1 but certainly by his cr.hp). -13 is sufficient enough where at any distance every character in the game can punish it on block. The ONLY argument about not reducing Balrog’s headbutt recovery is when balrog does ex.hb and the opponent does an ex.dp, he recovers first(ish) and may be able to punish, and that’s an argument but then again they can FADC their ex.dp given meter, Balrog has to commit.
-22f/-21f on block is overkill for headbutt, no-one needs 22f (almost half a second) to punish headbutt on block. I’ve choice words for anyone who says otherwise, but maybe someone can give a valid argument for why balrog’s headbutt needs to be -22 on block (or -17/-18 if recovery is reduced by 4f).
Ok, then what about:
- remove cl st Hp buff
- add Headbutt same recovery as in super ?
That’s cool, st.hp buff is useless as far as i’m concerned. But headbutt recovery is something Balrog needs.
Well, I’ve been using Dirty Bull exclusively for the last couple of weeks. At first, I was losing a lot more matches that I probably should have (or could have) won with U1, but as I played more with U2, I noticed a change. I was forced to change my play style and started to rely more on fundamentals and footsies than I had before, and my play actually became better. I am playing smarter and winning even more matches than I had with U1, mainly because I’m not relying on setting up U1 and I using Rog’s normals a lot more. I realized that I had been too dependent on ultras and now, with U2, I keep it as a potential punish and win matches without thinking about setting up for it.
That being said, I am still having a difficulty landing Dirty Bull when I do try to use it- the whole jump freeze thing, or people are out of range. I’ve found that it’s a great punish for a blocked DP, and it’s so satisfying to close a match with it, just straight dropping my opponent to the ground. And I’ve managed to land it several times when people are applying pressure in my face, and as a jump in. But i still whiff it a lot, too.
Going back to the argument for buffing U2, I think that making it come out faster and getting rid of the opponent’s ability to jump after the freeze would make it too powerful. However, I think adding just a little more range to the move wouldn’t make it too powerful, and it would become more of a viable option. Maybe it’s just me and my scrubby play, but there have been a lot of instances where I thought I was using U2 intelligently and would have closed a match, but my opponent was just out of range and I ended up shitting the bed.
Emanuelb, what 3nigmat1c is saying is the headbutt was already extremely punishable on block in Vanilla and Super. I don’t even care if they made it do no blockstun at all and it even worse on block like -30. The issue with headbutt is that they added so many recovery frames that it became useless as a move to advance through fireballs while maintaining charge. It’s cool that you’re trying to compile a list of changes for all characters and submitting it to Capcom but as you have mentioned before, YOU ARE NOT A BALROG PLAYER. You don’t understand the intricacies of the character since you don’t spend time dealing with the issues on a daily basis. The ability to whiff headbutt through fireballs to advance while maintaining charge is something that Balrog has had in EVERY game he has ever been in. It was always punishable if baited with a slow fireball but at least it was somewhat useful. Your resistance to suggested buffs to Balrog really shows how little you actually know about the character. All Balrog players are asking for at the very least is to revert it back to how it was. In my final suggestion changes to Capcom Unity I didn’t even ask for a lot of the things I wanted in this thread because I knew I’d be met with such resistance. Why do you feel that for any suggested buff (which in this case it isn’t even a buff it’s just reverting back to what it was) there MUST be a nerf to go along with it?
For example, if Vega has terrible reversals and someone suggests to improve his flip kick (scarlet terror), MUST someone say something like “ok buff his flip kick but nerf all his pokes by 5%”?
Here’s a link to Keno’s AE 2013 Balrog suggestions: http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/29822775/balrog-boxer-balance-suggestions?post_num=180#530250157
and here’s a link to mine: http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/29822775/balrog-boxer-balance-suggestions?post_num=12#530059601
Keno is one of the best Balrog players in the world and his changes are very similar to mine.
I don’t remember sugesting any nerfs for Balrog (or for any other characters except Cammy).
Regarding Headbutt, I only asked why Balrog would need another tool to fight fireballs. But I’m fine with this buff, I’ve included on the list.
We’re just saying that this is his BEST tool to fight fireballs, all of his other tools require him to drop charge (Focus absorb dash forward/backward) or only have a small window where its safe (TAP). Headbutt can advance without taking damage (grey or actual) and doesn’t require him to drop back-charge at all and he can rebuild down-charge during recovery. It’s just a better tool all around in comparison to his ex dashes, jumping, blocking or focus absorbing. I know you have probably more general knowledge about the entire cast because you catalog A LOT of data, but in short that’s why it’s a really important thing to have on the list.