Combofiend mentions some of the stuff he submitted to Capcom as possible changes for Balrog in the next SF4 update. Keep in mind that these are change suggestions that he submitted so it doesn’t mean everything he submits will be done exactly as he says it. The Japan team will also look at feedback from Japan and probably test how balanced these changes are. Here’s the link with the time stamp at 44 mins 5 seconds :
LP Dash straight to be -1 on block to be a safe chip tool. He mentions it would be safe vs grapplers but this will be extremely good because it will be safe from reversal DP’s and supers too. Also, if they implement this change by reducing the recovery frames by 2 then that means it will be 0 on hit and -1 on block.
Dash Swing Blow (he didn’t specify which version) startup reduced greatly so that it is much faster but lower the damage/stun on it. It’s not clear if he means reducing stun as in Dizzy Points or stun as in hitstun. From how he describes it though, it sounds like he’s saying some version of the overhead will be MUCH faster but do less damage and he will not be able to combo from it. If this change is made, Balrog’s mixup potential up close will certainly improve.
Buffalo Headbutt recovery reverted back to what it was in Vanilla/Super SF4. He mentions that many people requested this so he submitted it.
Turn-around Punch: increase the hitstun on the higher levels so that Balrog is not punishable for succesfully hitting with it and decrease the charge time slightly. Hopefully they execute this change by just keeping all levels of TAP to have the same frame data as level 1 TAP ( +2 on hit, -2 on block ). If they only increase the HITSTUN on it then the higher levels of TAP will still be very unsafe if blocked. However, increasing the hitstun only would still be a welcomed buff because that means he might be able to fadc into some big combos due to the increased hitstun. Reducing the charge time slightly seems like a useless buff to me since it already has faster than average charge time (32f charge time).
Dirty Bull motion changed back to 720 motion, startup changed to (1+0) so that you can’t jump out of it after the flash, reduce the damage. I like the startup change to (1+0) at the expense of reduced damage. If the stun is kept the same as it is now, even if they lower the damage to 100, the potential combo after a stun can lead to a LOT of damage and the threat of an unjumpable command grab will highly improve his frame traps and mix-ups up close. I don’t mind the motion changing back to 720.
He mentions there are a few other changes (not sure if he was referring to other Balrog changes) but that many things are subject to change. If these are the only changes that make it through for Balrog, I think it will be a huge boost in his mixup games up close. What do you guys think?
I agree with the changes mentioned, except TAP and Dirty Bull to an extent. Changes to the low/high game will be good i think lp.ds, ex.dl, and lp.oh (which forces stand on CH for some reason). Will be incredibly useful pressure tools and will allow us to open up an opponent safer than currently.
TAP levels above lvl1 have the same frame advantage of lvl1 if you FADC them. I’m too lazy to confirm the math again, but i remember doing it a long time ago and finding out that all versions of TAP became -2/+2 after FADC. I do agree though, i feel that his advantage on “HIT” shouldn’t be crazy punishable as it’s really hard to land higher level TAPs. Even more so since he doesn’t travel horizontally as far the higher the level.
Personally I don’t agree with changing the motion to dirty bull to be a 720, but that’s just because I prefer the 2xHCB. I agree that the current motion is probably the most difficult and least lenient in the game, but it doesn’t require us to use the UP motion. We lose the auto-dash U2 and would now have to buffer it during the dash, BUT we’d get to autocorrect easier and have some cross-up (jump over) shenanigans. I also want to point out that dropping the damage and maintaining stun is BAD in the sense that U2 is three hits. If it only did 100 damage, you’d still have to deal with VERY stupid scaling, meaning your total damage output would be <400. Given you can do some combo and tick throw into it since i’d be 1+0, but your total damage potential from a punish would be limited. Given if we were to land it as is, our combo potential is probably around <500 or so with scaling. I haven’t done anything specific to know what the max damage is after an unscaled U2 stun, but i’m guessing.
The amount of hits in any move is not really what determines how it will scale. For example, let’s say Seth missile kick (lightning legs move) does 20 hits, it still counts as just one move (scaling wise) so Balrog’s U2 being 3 hits doesn’t mean that the first hit of the follow-up combo will be at “4th hit” scaling. If you stun someone with dirty bull, I believe the next hit will start at 80% scaling which is not bad. If this new ultra 2 does 100 damage then a combo might look like this:
Ultra 2 stuns(100 dmg at 100%) = 100
Jump HK (100 dmg at 80%) = 80
Close HK (100 dmg at 70%) = 70
Crouch MP (70 dmg at 60%) = 42
EX Rush Upper (120 dmg at 50%) = 60
Crouch LP (20 dmg at 40%) = 8
Crouch MP (70 dmg at 30%) = 21
HP Headbutt (140 dmg at 20%) = 28
If my math is right that’s 409 total for a 1 meter combo after connecting with a full Dirty Bull. SF4 adds additional scaling when characters fall below 50% health also so that number might dip down to like 370’ish. Keep in mind though that the power of this ultra will come more from the threat of it than the actual damage it will do if you connect it. Also, if you mix in some resets on the post dizzy combo you can get even more damage.
Someone needs to explain to me something. Why would a 1+0 U2 be to powerful? There has to be a give and take with with choosing an ultra. For example is I choose the U1 option, then I have to play in a way that benifits that Ultra, however I also have to deal with cross ups and wake up pressure from my opponents I.E them standing in my face on wake up and me having to block or back dash 50/50. But, if I have U2 at my disposal and it’s 1+0, then I choose that and I no longer have to worry about the wake up pressure or cheesy jump ins, but… I also do not have the punishing/damaging U1 options. In other words, U2 will change my play style to a more defensive style, and U1 will allow me to play aggressively. I just don’t see why this is not an option, someone please explain?
I’m against U2 being 1+0 because its too outside of Balrog’s archetype. The 1+0 command grab is grappler territory (T. Hawk, Zangief, Hakan). They have they’re own mobility options that balance out having something thats unavoidable after the freeze. Hakan needs oil, T-Hawk needs to get in, Zangief has to get in and make you afraid to jump. Balrog doesn’t really have a “natural” balance to having a 1+0 grab. Picking U2 over U1 doesn’t…mutually exclude his options. Balrog still has super, so for the most part Super and U2 is like having U1 and U2 at the same time.
It’s almost like a perversion of the character, how many Balrog’s use empty jump throw? How often do you combo into mk.ru and then throw? lp.ds FADC fwd is negative on hit AND block. a 1+0 grab would almost guarantee Balrog landing it at least once a match. I think early on, he’d climb up the tier list since to nullify it you have to nullify balrog period. It’s just a slippery slope, there are better buffs that maintain his character archetype than making U2 1+0, also it could still have shit range.
On average most 1+0 grabs that are not raging demons have about 1.3 range, demons have 1.0 grab range, Balrog’s U2 range is 1.09, throw is about .95 to put them in perspective.
I suppose we should also dive into these possible system changes listed below:
*Red Focus - new universal command normal, can absorb two hits, lvl 2 is unblockable (Charges faster), some speculation on unscaled damage after crumple, and costs two bars.
*Two Ultra simultaneously - Can use U1 and U2 at the same time with a damage nerf of 33%
*Delayed Wakeup mechanic (undocumented) - For hard knockdowns you can delay your wakeup. I don’t know if this allows three timings or two timings.
I don’t think red focus gives much to Balrog IMO, maybe for some really good reads or obvious ones such as guys cr.mp cr.mk. If It has the same hitbox as the regular focus then it will be just as useless. I’m of a similar accord with having two Ultras, i think it can become interesting, but with the damage nerf to U1 (when using U2 simultaneously), U1 becomes almost useless in terms of damage. I don’t think Balrog gains any specific advantage when he can use U2 and have super stocked.
But alas…the delayed wakeup mechanic. If this is true i think this can turn the tide against all of the bad vortex matchups (Cammy, Ibuki, Seth, Akuma, etc), but specifically for Balrog since he gets owned on his wakeup by certain characters. His neutral game is top-tier IMO, and this change forces neutral game to be much more important than it is now. It definitely depends on the specifics, and a few characters may have double setups (for normal wakeup and delayed wakeup), but it may still cause them to think and thus let Balrog get up for free.
In a lot of my matches I’m able to use two Ultras. For example, I’ll use U1 early in the match for the sake of getting my opponent in the corner, and then by the end of the match I’ll have enough meter to pull off U1 a second time (sometimes allowing me to chip out my opponent for the win).
With better range on U2, do you think the possibility of landing both within a match gives Rog an advantage? And is there any word on nerfing the amount of stun Dirty Bull will deliver if both ultras are selected?
Yes, it’s been tossed around that having simultaneous use of the Ultras is balanced in that the damage output is nerfed to about a third (this is what i’ve heard not what i know). So 230 dmg 420 stun. and that’s a max, so in your situation it’ll be significantly less, maybe half of that at half charge (115 dmg, 210 stun). So in that case i feel it would be relegated to a get out of jail for free card, but not really. I feel that U2/Super is the best of both worlds (like having U1 and U2) and that U1 should be used to close matches or corner carry but not both. Given really good reads, red focus now absorbs multiple/infinite hits so this is probably the better way to land two ultras in a match with only one selected.