Bison Labwork: setups, option-selects and unblockables (updated 4/2013)

[Reversing_Devil]

I’m having trouble setting up Ultra at times with landing a jumping mpx2 on an airborne foe that is jumping. My setup is usually FADC and forward dash and see if they jump or not. Or EX PC them if they’re in the corner, see if they jump in after getting hit by it or not.

At times only the first jumping mp will connecting, not allowing me to Ultra my way in. At most times I will try to delay the second jumping forward mp because this will give me more charge time to setup the U1, or U2.

Guess it would just be safe to jp. MP>cr.mp>PC cross up setup? Or is it all depending on the character and how fast, what angle they are jumping?

[Gangryong]

Its not a true safe jump alright, but it does cause reversal DP’s to whiff unless the player knows how to get the DP to come out the in the other direction.High level players seems to be able to do it at ease so I’m not sure why Daigo didn’t do it in that match up, maybe he just wasn’t confident he could do it consistently during those games. The reason for the focus backdash, is when the focus attacks absorbs the hit from the jump in it stops option selects from triggering. If Daigo simply back dashed he would probably got hit by OS roundhouse.

if the jump is timed correctly, ryu’s dp will always wiff

[kisaku1218]

cheat jump, Bison have about same thing as Cammy jump in dive kick, but not as good.

jump in MK for cross up, easy to punish, last long in air.
they auto correct DP early to beat it.
jump in fierce, they have to auto correct kinda late.
jump in LATE MK, if they DP it will whiff/block, most of time it trade, if is not sagat you are fine, this is key bait, it beats lot of things, and mix it with empty jump.
same range with jump in late MK, do a jump in LATE fierce, it will make most DP whiff, if they didn’t do anything you land next to them, or hit them as cross up fierce.

is not high lv to auto correct DP, almost everyone can do it, but there is mix up too, early/late/crouching DP, and adding to wake up normal there is too many option, besides, focus will always be the option. Everything is like mix up, no joke, the things high lv player getting hit might be as simple as a cross up, but the true timing on it might be any of it.

Focus beats option select.
but if you cross up safe jump the FADC will dash into your st.fierce, or jabs, or they dash out.
jabs beats focus if they charge too long, if they charge but dash right away the st.fierce will normally catch them.
and cross up 4f safe jump can cover most of them, and same timing if you change range and do a empty jump normally make 3F wake up DP whiff.
is all just depends, there no really one moves beat all move in Bison. Maybe beside his walk back hurt box and walk back speed, that is like most broken sht in whole game.

I show you some evidence here:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/580811_389550824442330_548247311_n.jpg

[Fr0st_Blade]

if the jump is timed correctly, ryu’s dp will always wiff

Not always. If they do a very late DP (pretty sure it can’t be a reversal) they can autocorrect and hit it.

[TheBirdLives]

Not always. If they do a very late DP (pretty sure it can’t be a reversal) they can autocorrect and hit it.

Yeah, the more and more I try it the more I see that the unblockable setup doesn’t work against Ryu and Ken if they see it coming. A really, really late autocorrect MP Shoryu beats it clean. It still beats Lp and Hp though. Mp has 5 invincibility frames though so I’m sure it’s something to do with it.

[ShadowOS]

probably not the exact thread for this but i found out two things today

first off is that exdr has 13 frames of invinc… but exhs has 21 frames. i didn’t know that :s. i counted manually using the hitbox videos from super

the second is something i found in training mode. have you ever been trying to frame trap someone with c.short or c.jab > cl.fierce and they mash out a low short that goes under your or a low jab that hits you too quickly? well using cl.mp or cl.mk will help greatly at catching those lows that avoid cl.fierce and those quick jabs that stuff you.

after doing the math, i’m leaning towards using cl.mk. cl.mp has the benefits of being faster than s.fierce too but cl.mk has all the benefits of cl.mp plus more

advantages of cl.mk…

• comes out one frame faster than the cl.fierce
• gives you one extra frame of advantage on hit allowing an easy 2 frame link with c.mp or an ezpz 4 frame link with c.mk (this is super cool since going s.fierce ch > c.mk might whiff or get blocked depending on the spacing of a select few characters and going for the 1 frame c.mp was iffy for me)
• on block is +2 (cl.fierce/mp is -1 on block)
• hits the cr.lows that cl.fierce would whiff against
• hits certain mashed jabs better than cl.fierce might not catch in time

the only real draw back is that it does it does a mere 12.5 less damage than cl.fierce ch > c.mp > rh.sk, but it’s way easier to land cl.mk ch > c.mp > rh.sk since it’s a 2 frame link with c.mp now (plus all the other benefits). you also do 3 more damage than if you were to have used the standard cl.fierce ch > c.mk > rh.sk.

COOL RIGHT??

[The_Final_Lion]

So it’s smarter to record the OS, then do the wake up reversal yourself. Instead of doing the OS manually each time in training mode?

[ChaozTheory]

So it’s smarter to record the OS, then do the wake up reversal yourself. Instead of doing the OS manually each time in training mode?

yep

[Milligano]

Is this the same timing as Bison’s backthrow unblockable j.hk/mk set-up, except on characters that is isn’t unblockable against? Or is the timing of the HK different?

Would test this myself but I’m unable too atm.

[ChaozTheory]

Is this the same timing as Bison’s backthrow unblockable j.hk/mk set-up, except on characters that is isn’t unblockable against? Or is the timing of the HK different?

Would test this myself but I’m unable too atm.

Different timing, u delay the jump a bit longer.

[m16ghost]

I’m not sure I understand why it’s an unblockable if it whiffs

[Milligano]

Different timing, u delay the jump a bit longer.

Cool thanks.

[ChaozTheory]

I’m not sure I understand why it’s an unblockable if it whiffs

Cant block it crossup nor normal( whiff aint no block). While it whiffs on neutral stance and normal block, Crossup block forces it to hit in front for some reason.

[kisaku1218]

I just use this few days ago, and it seems works on lot of teleport character, it works on Akuma I watch him teleport back and my j.ferice whiff and I throw him again, like
2 times in the roll…
Throw Abel into a corner -> whiff cr.mk -> jump hp. If Abel tries to EX-roll on wakeup, he will roll right back into the corner

how about DJ and Guile/Honda safe jump, Gief is very problematic too…

[Only_Ash_Remains]

I’ve been meaning to post for some time, but never got around to it. First, I want to post some links:

Misc:

Spoiler

Safe Jump with Roundhouse from Super (on Ryu):
[media=youtube]i6GSEIZ6zOw[/media]

Safe Jump with Fierce from Super (on Ryu):
[media=youtube]-Q7OkzI6-L0[/media]

Bison OS U2 Against Akuma’s Tele:
[media=youtube]56hj7_ncEJg[/media]

Bison OS U1 Against Viper:
[media=youtube]ghWbxBPeTss[/media]

Bison Trade OS U1:
[media=youtube]xM8VSFymj1w[/media]

In regards to the Akuma teleport, I’ve seen a user OS dash ultra off of c.lk to catch all forms of his teleport if U2 isn’t your preference. In regards to the safe jump setups, the roundhouse one has been known since Vanilla but I found the fierce one after someone mentioning it couldn’t be done. They’re much harder than the fake safe jump (which I always relied on instead of the actual safe-jump setups). None of this is probably new but I wanted to share it in case. However, what I also want to share is a optimal punish and who it works on:

s.hp > s.lk > c.mk xx whatever (works off of jumpin/focus crumple/dash in to punish/frame trap and anti tech)

Spoiler

Makoto
Gouken
Akuma
Oni
Yun
Chun
Viper
Bison
Cammy
Yang
Rufus (Not Off Of Focus Attack)
Fei Long

It works off of meaty crossups and regular crossups as well but you’ll have to test around as the s.lk or the c.mk will whiff on some of them after one or both of j.mk/j.hk. I did a little bit of testing and it works on these chars with meaty xu.mk:

xu.mk s.hp > s.lk > c.mk:

[details=Spoiler]Makoto
Yun
Chun
Cammy
Yang
[/details]
Also, it’ll work off of the unblockable setups. With j.hk, it’s ALWAYS a good idea to walk forward a hair before hitting fierce if you crossup with it because you can start precharging after you press fierce (as long as you start charging before it starts recovering) and you’ll have charge by the time you hit c.mk on top of being closer. I didn’t test on everyone, but on Cammy the link will work after all teleports and LP/MP/HP Crusher mixups resulting in a meaty s.hp, but a meaty s.hp also goes into c.mk so it’s up to you.

I had some unblockables with Bison but most of them have been discovered now by far more active contributors.

[m16ghost]

The backthrow -> forward dash -> (pause) -> j.hp is also unblockable on Yang. The pause though is always the iffy part.

Yang’s reversals all whiff, and you land in time to block his autocorrect dp. But he can just forward dash under the entire setup.

[air_force]

Some of you might already know “reverse charge move”. You hold back and as soon as you see someone cross you, you input another “back” with the attack button.
Let’s say we do a “reverse scissor” then the input should be 1(charge) 4+k.
But in some crossup circumstances, I just can’t do this anymore. why?

[stabicron]

Looking for a safe jump setup vs Blanka’s ex upball. What you have listed on the first few posts for him would be vs his regular roll. His ex up ball is 4 frame startup.

Looking for setup for forward and back throws as well as any possible tricks off a lk sk

[TheBirdLives]

Anyone seen this fake crossup setup from momo?

[media=youtube]Sj00hYTglWI[/media]

J forward Short > Bnb. Looks for all your money like a crossup but hits in front. Tricky as fuck.

Watch at 2.20 then again right at the end. Haven’t had time to test it but it obviously works on Rog. Will hopefully get some time to test it later.

[SpiderCrawl]

Is that a big hitbox character thing? I need to test that on the rest of the cast later.

Tested it. Character specific and is a cross up sometimes others not. Depends on button press timing. If they don’t block you end up in corner… sometimes. Needs more testing.

Also the set-up is forward throw in corner dash then jump.

Works as in the vid on Cammy, Sakura, Fei, and Rog. Doesn’t work on Shotos or Guile and it is a straight up cross up on Sagat. Haven’t tested it on the rest of the cast. Seems you can walk out easy that might be me messing up the timing though.