Yeah, having st. RH actually hit crouching characters would be nice.
St.fp and st.rh and cl.rh and cl.mp hitting crouchers would be pretty nice. Ch cl.fp leading into anything would be cool but really most of these suggestions are pretty bad. i hope they dont read some of these and take them seriously because none of it would really help in his hard matchups.
I would like cs.MP to never miss crouchers, it’s bogus that I have to wait a split-second just to hit Chun/Cammy/etc. Although I don’t mind cs.HK whiffing on crouch, it’s a decent tick into Typhoon like Gief’s st.HK.
I’ve taken my time to read what people have had to say and I like a lot of the ideas. I don’t think that T-Hawk needs any new special moves. In SF 2 HD he only had his condor dive, SPD and DP, and to me he was very deadly with those moves, but it wasn’t just about what moves he had because he has more moves in SSF 4 it was all about how those moves felt in HD, their start up times and frames of invincibility etc. IMO T-Hawk needs a better hit box for Ultra 2, faster start up on DP & condor spire, faster Lv 3 focus attack… and has anybody else noticed that you can’t focus cancel his DP?
:tdown:
The only thing I have been able to focus cancel is some of his normals? Kens DP can be focus canceled, even Guiles flash kick can be focus canceled (which makes no sense at all when you look at the moves physics) so why can’t Hawks :wtf: I love T-Hawk as a character in SSF4 and I’m going to make him work for me and continually learn and adapt to his play style and match ups, BUT… If T-Hawk got the SSF 4 Guile treatment with his normals and specials he’d be a lot better all round. I think all of Hawks improvements should be on his hit boxes, start up and recovery times.
Also I do agree that his condor spire should be a DP with K, but I actually think Capcom made it a different input direction so you’d have to think about the move before you do it e.g. when should it be done, against which characters should I do it on a lot & when, is it safe on block against this character etc, T-Hawks condor spire is a completely different input to any of Hawks moves. His condor spire has a bad start up, so it’s not wise to do it close to an opponent or on wake up but I often knock people out of the air with it when they’re jumping in because it has good priority once it gets started up. I also think his Ultra 2 would be great if it was a qcf, qcf (236, 236) motion. I do think his current Ultra 2 motion is not meant to be a fast reaction ultra which is quite lame, it’s like you’re meant to activate that ultra when you think your opponent’s going to jump rather than when you might see the first frames of your opponents jump animation… Almost like a read ultra LOL! I also agree with the person that said new moves would cause further balance issues with all characters and would probably require another disc release. If it can’t be changed by DLC/Patch I think we should work with what Mr Hawkins has.
Also I wanted to say thank you to everybody that contributed to all the T-Hawk guides, discussions, findings etc. I may not be able to remember all the names, but I can remember all the great points that were made.
:tup:
this hasn’t been brought up anywhere, and it may not be that big of an issue, but does anyone else think T.hawk’s jump arc makes it harder for him to get in? its a ridiculously high jump, and he’s in the air longer than most characters, so jumping over their projectiles early is not a guaranteed punish unless you risk it with Condor Dive. a shorter jump arc where he’s not in the air for so long would make his air game/condor dive more dangerous, and getting in without condor dive from the air would be easier. Just throwing this out there.
No mainly because everytime t.hawk jumps, its a guess. Is he going to: Condor Dive? use splash/j.mp?, empty jump? Fake with d.mp? Bait an anti air? Essentially if you jump at smart times, they opponent is forced to guess. Even just standing and blocking is bad because it lets hawk in.
true enough I suppose, it really isn’t a problem if your smart with it, and I do like being weird and jumping over Akuma’s and Gouken aerial fireballs.
here’s another relatively minor, yet horrendously stupid thing I noticed about condor dive. you can block it low. capcom has an issue with special moves that should be overhead by all means, yet aren’t (like Gouken’s demon flip dive kick, all 3 hits of fei long’s chicken wing, Makoto’s aerial non-EX axle kick, and other crap I’m sure I’m forgetting.) I guess its more of a complaint of SFIV being lenient with overheads for no reason; I really hate it even if it isn’t a big deal.
You know, I’m beginning to think that altering Condor Spire would fix quite a bit of Hawk’s problems. Basically, if:
- Spire’s motion became DP + K.
- All versions of Spire went through fireballs.
- Spire start-up time was lessened for all versions.
- Spire travel distance was increased for all versions. (At least enough so that combined with Change 3 Hawk would be able to punish Blanka Balls using HK and EX Spire.)
- Spire either grants frame advantage or is neutral on hit for all versions.
- Spire grants less frame disadvantage on block for all versions.
Doing all of this probably makes him silly broken, but, I can always dream. And, really, beyond this, there’s not much I’d change about Hawk. I guess I could stand to see:
- Tomahawk has quicker startup.
- Condor Dive can be done while jumping backwards.
- Condor Dive goes through fireballs.
- EX Condor Dive can be done after a non-EX Tomahawk.
- Hawk’s FA is less shitty.
- Hawk has more normals which don’t whiff against crouching characters.
- Raging Slash is now QCFx2 + KKK.
- Raging Slash has a larger hitbox.
- Raging Slash is now on-hit instead of a throw.
But if I could get those changes to Spire then I’d be completely and perfectly happy seeing none of these other changes. Spire’s really the most disappoint part about Hawk, IMO.
Doesn’t EX Spire already KD?
Pretty sure it doesn’t, but, I haven’t landed a non-counter EX Spire in ages. I mean, if it did knockdown, then I’m fairly sure the EX Spire -> EX Tomahawk -> EX Dive Combo that’s in his challenge mode wouldn’t work.
How about altering his priorities of condor dive to beat or trade in Hawks favour with antiair moves like shoryuken or Blanka upball? I mean if they can already easily punish Hawk after block, there’s no reason to have antiair moves beat it clean when the move is active is there?
EX spire absolutely knocks down 100% of the time. The DP to dive combo works as a juggle in the corner (not worth it) and mid screen if theyre hit out of the air by the spire but its hardly ever worth it. One of the problems with spire is its only comboable from cl.mp and cl.mk(sometimes) and thats just not reliably hitable without a jumpin or big punish.
It’s been a really damned long time since I’ve hit anyone dead on with EX Spire then, lol.
And Leo? Ain’t no such thing as priority, man. It’s just how the hit boxes interact. Spire’s hit box would need to be changed for it to beat out the shit you want it to beat out
Oh ok. Lets change the hitbox properties then. There should be at least one move that should beat/ trade with Blanka ball as that move is abused for free far too much in the Hawk matchup.
Anyway I was referring to condor dive, not spire.
Spire can already trade with horizontal ball (not upball, though…!) but the move’s long startup makes the move impossible to use against it. But if we change the properties of condor dive to trade in Hawk’s favour, then Blanka actually has to think twice about what he does to prevent Hawk from getting in, rather than performing his blanka ball every time he sees Hawk move/jump in range.
There’s a reason why Condor Dive is worthless against special anti-airs, and that is because then he’d be too good. Jump ins would be way too free simply because of the risk of your anti air of choice getting beaten by dives.
Condor Dive is okay where it is right now. Only things I’d change is speed of decent to be made a little faster, bounce back on block to have lower recovery and to up the damage maybe twenty points. Which, come to think of it, are pretty big changes. Whatever.
I still maintain that the best change T. Hawk could have is to completely buff his st.RH. Just make it silly good and he’d be in a much better place. With a good enough hit box and fast enough start up on that thing he could stuff a bunch of shit that currently gives him a really hard time.
He needs a knockdown combo off of jabs more than anything. And no jumpin, jab jab dp doesnt count. You have to be too close for that. Ex spire should be able to combo off of jabs. Seriously. Its stupidly easy to avoid command grabs in this game anyways…
yeah, with the inclusion of dash backs in the game engine, you can avoid pretty much anything T.hawk throws at you and remain safe and sound, the only exception being spire. I completely agree with the Idea that Raging slash needs to catch back dashes, they rape hawks offense.
his Dive, why does he bounce SO far away when he lands it? why can he just GO DOWN and enjoy his well earned knock down? I wish the risk and reward ratio was more in his favor with that move honestly.
I think Hawk seriously needs some retooling, he doesn’t have enough to support the image of a full on throw character in this game. Hawk should straight up dominate when he’s in your face in this game, but he doesn’t. His mockery of a DP is a good reason why, as well as slow start up on spire.
don’t wanna seem like I’m just whining, I enjoy the character, and he’s the reason I started getting into IV seriously, its just some of the limitations the development team put on him leave me salty. (grab characters should only be good at grabbing! DERP!)
It’s true that back dash is very good against T. Hawk but I don’t think not being able to effectively combo into a KD is his biggest deficiency. His real problems lie in just how easy it is to keep him out. While he can beat characters like Ryu or Dhalsim with smart play, characters like Guile, Chun Li and Akuma keep him out FOR FREE. If his st.RH were better he’d be able to trade or possibly even stuff fireballs/normals from much further away, as well as having a better poke to help him out in all his other matches.
St.fp beats fireballers from a better distance than st.rh. Chun doesnt keep him out that easily. Her st.rh can be focused dash forward 360’d. Akuma isnt that bad. 6-4 matchup. He cant really keep you out all day. He’d rather vortex you to death. Im amazed you said he can beat sim. Sim guile blanka honda are his 4 hardest matchups. Sim keeps him out for FREE. Guile keeps him out for free. Blanka does whatever he wants and honda holds downback and wins.
Nah Sim is alot better than Akuma since you can actually hit his limbs. You can’t hit fireballs. Akuma’s teleport is a lot better than Dhalsim’s and, as you mentioned, he can always fall back on his disgusting vortex if zoning you out ends up not working.
Blanka’s not so bad. Balls are easily jabbed/cr.mp’d on reaction, you can match his footsies and your command throws beat his tick attempts. Honda is just a bad matchup.
And, yeah, st.Fierce is better for stuffing fireballs than his st.RH, but that’s my point. I want st.RH to be even better than st.Fierce. I want it to have 3 frame startup and reach 3/4’s of the screen and cause enough hit stun to allow walk forward lp.Typhoon on their last recovering frame.
FUCK. GUILE.