I’m creating some threads on the forums about how to balance the characters. I’ll only start threads on characters which I have fought with very, very much. For other characters, feel free to start a thread on your own =)
The concept is just to put out there what you think would perfectly balance a character that you have great experience with. You may add one new move to the character if you feel there is a strong deficiency that can only be resolved with a new move. Also, add a third Ultra which you feel would help the fighter with difficult matchups. Also, please refrain from ridiculing others’ ideas… it would be better to provide your own ideas and politely comment on why you would not do what others have proposed.
T. Hawk
Ultras:
Ultra I is fine.
Ultra II needs the command input changed to DN-BK, DN-BK + All Punch. It is too difficult to FD-BK, FD-BK + All Punch when the move is a reactionary move. The move should be much easier to connect. The move also connect against backdashes within range.
Ultra III would be a projectile counter called Grand Condor. The move would be aerial only, with an input of DN, DN, DN + All Punch. It would look like a fast Condor Dive in which T. Hawk spears the opponent into the ground, takes them by the legs and spins them around and around before throwing them high into the air. As the camera looks up at them, the eagle flies by, followed by T. Hawk performing a Tomahawk Buster into the character’s back. Damage would be 350 since it would probably be one of the easier ultras to land.
Specials:
Condor Dive is fine.
Tomahawk Buster needs to have a slightly faster startup.
Condor Spire needs to travel farther, and the command is now roll DN-FD + K. The move currently does not close the gap enough to be useful for anything other than a surprise move, and to punish projectiles with the EX version. The move needs to move about 15% farther with the same number of frames. Recovery from hitting a blocking opponent needs to be farther both to give T. Hawk a “safe” approach, and to give a guarded opponent safety from a Mexican Typhoon.
Mexican Typhoon needs a range reduction. It currently grabs just a bit too far. The move as is causes opponents to feel T. Hawk is cheap, and as a T. Hawk player, I agree with this one move. Also, the EX version needs to do 280 damage. This would counteract the problem in which T. Hawk always gets his Super because there aren’t many incentives to use EX moves with Hawk.
Add new move: Tierra Slam. Tierra Slam is DN + All Kick in the air and causes T. Hawk to drop straight down with one foot leading the way. The move is the same speed as Condor Dive, but only does 70 damage. The move is added to help T. Hawk throw off projectile and charge defense characters. This would help T. Hawk fake Guiles into flash kicks, fake shotos into uppercuts, etc. The knockback should be huge so that it is not used to set up combos… otherwise it would be too powerful.
Command Normals:
All are fine to me.
Normals:
DN HP is a bit too damaging, it needs a reduction. Change it from 9050 to 7050.
Standing HK is a bit too damaging considering its range, thus a reduction is needed. Change it from 120 to 100.
Close Strong no longer misses against small, crouched opponents.
Items enclose with * are attributed to “gridman”
So what are your ideas? Do you agree, do you disagree? Let’s see =)
Terrible idea on the normals. Awful idea at reducing the range on his 360 since you know, its already shorter than giefs. His command normal df.lp is terrible and is negative on hit. Very situational anti air only. Theres already been a thread about this too.
T Hawk has a very difficult time getting close to charge defenders (turtles) such as Guile because he lacks any real way to cause them to blow their defense without him taking a hit. He also has real trouble against projectile characters with a good anti-air move as they are able to predict his Condor Dive. If you feel Hawk is fine the way he is, then you must feel he is perfect. I play as Vega more than Hawk, and I feel that I have several strategies with Vega whereas I only have really two with Hawk. I think that means he is not as complete and not fine as is. I respect your opinion.
Gridman:
T Hawk already has the highest stamina in the game along with Zangief; the level of damage he can do with his normals is staggering, and although I enjoy it when I’m playing as T Hawk, I felt that by me adding greater options for Hawk with my changes, he would need some nerfs for the buffs I think he needs. If all changes are positive, you’re just trying to boost a character you enjoy playing. I don’t want any god tier characters, but boosting Hawk without any nerfs would put him there. What do you think about the Tierra Slam idea?
You are right about some of his weaknesses, but you didn’t post how you would modify the character to resolve those issues. Please help to keep this thread a positive one. =)
Shorter startup on DP and Ultra 2
Ultra 2 hits backdashes.
Spire is dp motion with kick
Close strong doesnt whiff on small characters crouching.
Can combo into spire off lights OR can combo into sweep off COUNTERHIT jabs. ( i get a fucking SHIT ton of CH jabs cause people holding up when theyre getting pressured)
faster spire startup and have it not be able to punish it when you hit with it close.
I like your ideas. I think Hawk still needs something to pull anti-air moves so that turtles can’t sit back and wait. So I’m still in favor of the new move idea I have if there is another iteration in the SFIV series. However, I would love to see others’ ideas for accomplishing the same.
Do you mind if I place your ideas into my original post? I will give you credit in the post.
I don’t think a single character isn’t airborne in backdash for a few frames. That’s why el fuerte can psychic ex guac you and hakan can meaty U2 you.
T.Hawk would be ten times better if he had a light to medium link or a knockdown link (hit-confirmable w/o jump-in link to sweep or ex spire or tb), people couldn’t crouch his s.fp and s.mp, and his dp wasn’t a whopping 8 frame start-up <— honestly WTF!
Thats why I suggested a COUNTER HIT jab into sweep link. This might also help him combo Ex spire off CH jabs but itd be a help. Really though, if EX spire acted similar to green hand in that it had faster startup itd be so much better. I hate trying to psychic ex spire and getting stuffed by a jab because of the startup.
I have amended the original post to include Gridman’s ideas. I think these additional three changes strengthen the core mechanics of T Hawk without overpowering him.
So what do you guys think about the Ultra III I proposed if there is a future iteration of SFIV? Are there matchups in which you would select Ultra III? Do you feel it would be overpowered? Or perhaps you have a better idea for an Ultra III for Hawk. Let’s hear you.
I think it’s great you are undergoing this thought experiment but I certainly wouldn’t use it. Especially since you would probably be correct in assuming that it would do paltry damage. The impact of U1’s damage is hard to deny. The fear of U2 is hard to deny. Your proposed U3 wouldn’t offer comeback potential or really take away a facet of the opponent’s game–Guile could still toss booms at you and block the damn thing unless you did it psychically.
Is SF4 world of warcraft, is this how far things have gone; how the hell are you supposed to “balance” a character that no one even knows how to play yet, and why is anyone posting this sort of stuff anyway.
tip 1 for balancing t. hawk: pick ryu, he is very balance!!
tip 2 for balancing t. hawk: get better until you start winning more than you lose and then get worse
Regarding the U2, I’d also like to see it given a larger hitbox/whatever. Maybe changed so it connects like a Tomahawk Buster, since it does start like a TB. The timing for the U2 is far, far too severe for an AA Ultra. Unless you’re EXACTLY on the money with it, more than likely you’ll just zoom right by your opponent. Or worse, and as I’ve had happen before, actually colliding with an airborne opponent but said opponent just gets bumped out of the way instead. That was a major WTF moment for me
Heh…I always think it’s funny when people talk about this stuff. I remember back when MK3 came out. Sub-Zero was so dominant it wasn’t even funny. Some other chars were stupid powerful, and some others were just pitiful. So what do they do? Damage scaling. When that doesn’t work, they nerf the hell out of Subby’s moves. I though it was fun and challenging to figure out was to beat the chars the way they were and win with the weaker chars despite their ‘limitations’. I STILL feel this way about fighting games. I don’t need to win every time I play, I don’t have to pick the ‘best’ chars in the game.
That said, Hawk is fine like he is. I have no problem with anything about him.
Hawk doesn’t need new moves… and he certainly doesn’t need any nerfs, especially not to the things that basically define him as a character right now.
At least IMO all he needs is some improvement to his U2 hitbox ( seriously, that thing is a fucking joke to look at ) and maybe a better motion… maybe get one or two moves changed to kick inputs… Spire should be faster… and thrust peak needs… something.
Oh, and he should be able to dive on back jumps, and maybe have a slihgtly safer dive.
The only thing that’d like is a bit more range on Spire, but that’s a minor thing. I just use that move to close the gap.
As far as reducing the range on Mexican Typhoon… That’s a horrible idea. Last I checked(I’m probably wrong) Gief has more range on his grabs. I don’t think that I ever Typhooned someone just outside of Sweep range like Gief can.
Damage reduction on his normals is sort of goofy too.
