Balancing T. Hawk

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
61

Trust me on this one. Sim is worse. Ive played solid akumas and have a consistent solid sim in this area. Ive also played Art’s sim before a handful of times. Sim rapes hawk. Ex up flame stops every jump in. And beating limbs in this is near impossible. Blanka is brutal. The good normals hawk has are nearly useless. He can just ball you with no fear. For every few cr.mp/jabs he eats from balling, he makes up in the other random ones he hits you with as you walk forward. They are not “easily” cr.jabbed or mp’d on reaction. Good players will bait command throws so trying to beat a tick throw with a command throw is asking to get neutral jumped.

Sim is 7-3
Blanka 7.5-2.5
Honda 7-3
Guile 6.5-3.5
Akuma 6-4.

62

Uhm, Hawk shouldn’t be jumping in on 'Sim anyway. What should be happening is that you’re jabbing his limbs from max range and using n.j.mk to beat air normals + focussing fireballs for ultra. Wait for an opening then start proceeding with whatever feels right, which is the main part where this matchup becomes a crap shoot for Hawk since he doesn’t have a reliable way of closing the distance. You’ll definitely have to ume shoryu for the KD. From full screen, though, you can cause quite a bit of damage if the 'Sim is trying to use normals to poke. Crossup teleports are free cl.st.mp for you.

Don’t get me wrong it’s a bad matchup but not as bad as Akuma imo. There’s just nothing there for Hawk.

And no way is Blanka that bad. cr.mk beats the startup of his balls (+quite a few other things) and if you’re any further away then cr.mp is quite easy to react with, or even just block. Sure you can’t punish but if you’re too close to react it’s better than eating a counter hit.

63

You can’t get in on a defensive Chun who does a slow FB from a distance, and moves forward in the air w/ jumping FP. None of Hawk’s moves have priority over that. EX SRK right before the FB hits you may be one option since you’ll pass through the FB and possibly hit her in the air.

If she moves forward on the ground trailing the LP FB, any normal move she throws out after will hit twice so you can’t focus that.

I guess I’m saying that if both players move back and create a gap it’s much harder for him to get in.

64

I don’t know about Honda matchups as I’ve never played a good Honda, or many Hondas at all. Blanka’s balls are not easily stopped from closer than 3/4 screen. If you have really good reactions then maybe that works out.

Are you serious or joking? 3/4 screen like Rufus? And enough time to walk all the way over and grab? BTW Spire beats Rufus’s long punch.

And Sim? Pfffftt. From full screen, the only thing that doesn’t trade w/ his cr. FP is cr. MK. Not 7/8 screen, FULL screen. It’s REALLY hard to get in on him, more than any other character I suppose.

65

Does anyone else find Hawk vs. Hawk difficult? LMAO. I’ve only played TWO Hawk matches and the last one rocked me because I had no idea of how to react. I think that’s quite hilarious.

66

St.fp and St.mk shut down all of akumas footsies. He has to resort to jumping and using air fireballs. If you can block the vortex and tech throws, this match isnt that bad. It can be difficult sure but Akuma cant out footsie you. Ultra 2 helps loads. And teleports can be baited and punished.

Wait wait, chun following the fireball is a problem? Why? And especially in that situation, whats the problem? Shes closing the distance for you. Block, tech a throw if you think its coming or if you think she’ll poke ex 360. Whats gonna happen at worst? You eat an instant overhead rh? Actually I think those can be punished with ultra 2 even on a jump back. If shes trying to zone you, you treat it like a shittier guile with worse footsies. EX SBK is easily safe jumped /os’d (just know what side youll be on) and your footsies arent THAT much worse compared to hers.

Chun is definitely 6-4.

Not getting into the blanka debate. Post up some videos of you playing a competent blanka and we’ll see. Or even a competent sim.

67

being able to combo into knockdown easier would actually make Hawk’s life exponentially better. he wouldn’t have to worry about continuously chasing idiots after giving them a few pokes. he’d start getting scary. I’m pretty certain Zangief can knockdown considerably easier and more consistently than T.hawk can.

68

Hmm…this is turning out to be a matchup thread. Well for the record I think gridman’s explanation of the matchups to be more accurate, but I do agree with Dhevil that Hawk has a super hard time closing in. But that’s the curse all ‘pure’ grapplers share…

But it shouldn’t be THIS hard against certain characters. They made it almost IMPOSSIBLE. Shotos are hard to get in as well but they’re not his worst matchups as at least there are some ways to react to the way they play. For Hawk’s bad matchups all his opponent needs is to basically spam moves that he has no way of punishing/reacting decently. IMO capcom should make Hawk’s balancing changes to be focused on this key issue.

69

Hawk’s worst matchups are when he can’t get in and can’t abuse his normals to make up for not being able to get in. If he can’t play the throw mixup game or footsies, then Hawk is fucked. Period. And, then, there are those matches where you can’t even punish the opponent for making mistakes on top of those two issues. So, really, whatever gets changed, the following needs to occur:

He needs to be able to more easily get around fireball zoning. This should be easily fixable by making adjustments to Dive and Spire.
He needs a stronger footsie game. He’s going to need some hitbox changes for this one
He needs to be able to punish silly shit like blocked headbutts and blocked Blanka balls. Once again, this should be easily fixable by making adjustments to Dive and Spire.

Fix two of those three problems and Hawk becomes a much better character.

70

DP. fix that, and he should be able to beat out things like headbutt and ball easier. that’s one of its functions in SF2 where it wasn’t used solely as an anti-air. it can’t beat out anything in its current state.

yeah in SF2, honda and Blanka are still difficult match-ups, but at least he could do SOMETHING to them thanks to this.

no, I’m pretty certain they will not improve anything about his DP in the upcoming arcade version or balance patch or whatever. I’ll stop mentioning now.

71

I relent. Blanka balls are NOT easy to hit on reaction with mp’s or even lp’s without trading. I went into training mode with my bro and I could barely hit 1/10 of the time without trading or just being stuffed for counterhit damage altogether. I guess all the times I was stuffing them during matches was pure dumb luck.

… but I still don’t think the matchup is 2.5/7.5. It’s 3/7 for sure, maybe even a teeny bit less.

@ blackgenma

Yeah, for real. It’s utter bullshit that Tomahawk won’t beat them. Can’t beat them and can’t punish them. Utter shite.

72

I’d like to be able to cancel st. LK and have time to dash in for another hit(s). I tend to do cr. lp x 2, st. lp, st. LK, FADC and hope to start the string over or grab, but it’s impossible because Hawk’s slow and short forward dash. Everyone else can FADC basic moves to link into another combo (Ryu stands out the most).

Allowing st. LK to be FADC’d is basically useless as it is now. You might say it’s good to backdash from, but you’re so far away from the opponent it doesn’t matter. Cl. st. LK isnt’ any different.

73

Remember when I mentioned Chun and the walkup FB game? In the new SBO video we see Vangief can’t do anything about this. He’s not Hawk, but it’s a similar situation.

If you jump. you can get hit in the air or swept. If you focus the FB, you get tagged with a poke.

Jump to 5:55
[media=youtube]unIW3ZcL7_I&feature=player_embedded[/media]

74

T. Hawk needs a lot of balacing out.
my thought about hawk.

mexican typhoon is good no need to do anything there because his range looks like a very far grap but it is still 2x c.lp and grap range.
further than that he can’t grap and making the range shorter will kill hawk.
condor dive is ok although i’m indeed missing the back jump and then activate it and it may have higher priority.
condor spire may indeed travel a bit further and with kick to activate it and if possible with a dn-fd motion or dn-bk motion.
tomahawk needs a lot of polishing. i don’t use this move much because it can’t hit anything and activation is too slow.
so tomahawk needs a faster activation and as you all can see it goes 60 degree while the old hawk in ssf2x goes like 40 degree and travels more forward then up.
hawk from ssf2x can use tomahawk to make combo’s and now you can only hit once and then tomahawk to combo.
let it be at lease be a 2 hit combo and then tomahawk to make it 3 hit combo.
and a much higher priority on this one maybe like a dragon punch or even cammy’s cannon spike.
this move is a trade most of the time or you get hit because it activates so slow.
really need this done.
double typhoon no comment good move.
raging typhoon same as his super great move.
raging slash here it goes. it’s like the tomahawk you won’t grap anything out of the air accept if your apponent is jumping in real close.
this move needs to travel a bit more forward than up since you like to grap your apponent when they are turtling and try to jump away from hawk.
and the motion needs to go to dn-bk or dn-fd.

my biggest concern are his normal moves.
like the starting post says his s.hk needs power reduction, i don’t think so.
i think hawk needs a smaller hitbox since if you do a s.hk and your opponent hit with hp or hk then there won’t be any trade only hawk gets hit, this is very frustrating.
hawks moves are crap if you ask me because he can’t trade with strong normals only with lp or lk.
all that bison ( dictator ) needs to do against hawk is s.hk and hawk is out of the game.
you can’t trade anything against the s.hk of bison accept s.lk, but if you trade like this then hawk is in disadvantage because bison hk does 100 damage and hawk lk doen what 30 or 40 damage.
if you look at gief his hk or hp does 140 damage and it can trade against your opponent now that rocks.
you can trade with s.mp or c.mk with some opponent but they will be doing hp or hk and so it’s still not acceptable trade because hawk does less damage.
so there will be no poking with hawk and i really want to poke.
his c.hp does to much damage??? no way, this is a 2 hit move and most of the time you only hit one of the 2 so no need to reduce damage.
i think his ex moves need some damage upgrade like mexican typhoon.
it does grap a little farther like the lp 360 but a damage of 200 is not exeptable.
it need at lease as much as hp 360, a damage of 230 or even more like 250 since it cost you a ex bar.

the most important is still the hitbox of hawk.
CAPCOM MAKE IT SMALLER SO WE CAN TRADE NORMAL MOVES.
i’m so frustrated about this because a lot of characters can only use 1 button ( one move ) to total domination against hawk.
bison is s.hk, ibuki s.mk, cammy c.mk and so on and i’m really going to be sick about these things.
i like playing grap characters but not like this so i’m going back to gief.
it is just not realistic, a big man like hawk hit a little girl like ibuki at the same time and the big man gets damage but not the little girl just don’t at up.
ok, it’s only a game but you know what i mean, just too sick.

75

Eh slow day at the office so i’ll chime in.

  1. They are not going to make t.hawk smaller. He has always been the biggest character in every game he’s been in hold Hugo (yet to be seen since they’ve never been in the same game).

  2. Specials/Supers/Ultras
    SPD - Fine as is

Tomahawk Buster - 5 frame DP like Sagat on all three with 35-45 degree angle instead of a 60 degree angle. BnB involving fp TB with AA as mp TB or lp TB. Invulnerability fine as is. Lower hitbox as well with his waist having a hitbox instead of only his face/upper chest.

Dive - Fine as is. Godly damage and armor break for a grappler. Only complaint is usable on backwards direction jumps should be possible. Maybe allow this only for EX CD.

Spire - Startup needs drastic reduction. Currently at 20/20/20/15. Should be along the lines of 13/13/13/15. Range increase across the board with recovery frame reduction from 4+7 to 4+4 or 4+5. In its current state you can throw a 5 framer every time and punish him on whiff making it an unusable mix-up vs good players. -1 on hit or 0 on hit with -7/-8/-10 to -4/-5/-6 or something similar on block. EX should be at least -6 on block at all distances due to off the ground, fireball invincibility, forward movement, knockdown properties. Currently, condor spire just straight up needs work. 75% of these changes would make it infinitely better. Change to dp+kicks to prevent having to return to neutral when walking forward to get a spire.

Super - Fine

U1 - Fine

U2 - Startup at 3 currently is fine. Needs a better hitbox, hits backdash, damage reduction with easier input (qcf or qcb x 2 + kicks to prevent overlap)

Dashes - Fine

Focus - Fine

Normals - c.lk +4/+1 from +3/0, lp’s fine, s.mp UNDUCKABLE!, mk’s fine, c.hk fine, s.hk change from 10/5/22 to 11/3/17 or something similar with -9/-5 the same, c.hp instead of 90*50 to 120 single hit, cl.hp from +6/+2 to +4/+1, s.hp from 8/2/21 to 7//2/16 at -6/-4 with range increase. Splash hitbox change to wider instead of taller to prevent whiffing on deep cross-ups, j.hp stays out for 5 instead of 3, j.hk stays out for 6 instead of 4.

Things to not allow happen:

Comboable spire off of light attacks unless you’re left -4 or more (this would be op as fuk)
Comboable sweep unless his sweep gets changed to -14 or worse with a 1 frame link
Cancelable heavy attack and cancelable far medium attacks (too much dmg for a grappler with an spd range of 1.5)
Spammable far range poke like honda s.hk (too op for a 2 frame grab grappler, s.mk is the max distance probably before too op)
Spammable condor dive (scrub bait)
FADCing Tomahawk Buster would be op as hell for a grappler

Most people on this board and especially in this sub-forum couldn’t balance a character for shit so I don’t expect too many people to understand why some of these changes are necessary or unnecessary.

76

not making t. hawk smaller i mean make his hitbox smaller.
they all use to say about priority so if your still up on priority then i’ll say make his move have more priority.
these days we don’t say about priority anymore but about hitbox.
daigo says t.hawk is a no go and i know why, because he can’t trade anything.
hawk has a lot of moves that needs faster start ups.
actualy his condor dive needs to be a little polished too.
cd only hit when he’s about 60% of the screen any further then that and your opponent can block after a fireball and it’s if you react fast enough on your opponent fire ball and fire balls at this range come pretty fast especially sonic boom.
i think cd is made to punish fire ball users like in ssf2x, and maybe it can also have a little bit more priority because you can punish cd with a jab.
and a little bit more dash is also welcome because his dash or just walking has almost the same speed.
hawk from ssf2x walks a lot faster then in ssf4.

and no moves to come in on your opponent.
condor dive and spire was made for comming in on your opponent but it just won’t do the job.
t. hawk needs to get better a lot otherwise he won’t be such a low tier.

COME ON CAPCOM MAKE HAWK A MONSTER SINCE EVEN DAIGO SAYS HE’S A NO GO LIKE HAKAN.
hakan’s grap is a monter he can grab you after 3 jabs if timed right or if oiled up he can always grap you from that distance.

77

I want buster fadc ultra 2 and I don’t care that it wouldn’t be fair.

78

yeah i want that too.
i don’t even care if they make ultra 2 weaker on damage, just do it.

hawk hitbox in air should also be buffed because he lose about everything in the air so there is no way to come closer to your opponent.