Balance 3rd Strike

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
81

IMO the whole reasoning that if YCK were banned that a new top tier would form and 3S would be the same is crap. The idea of banning YCK is not to eliminate a top tier from 3S, but just to eliminate those 3 characters that dominate over the entire cast of 3S.

If they were banned, I guess just looking at the current tiers, the top would be
Makoto - Dudley - Akuma - Yang - Urien

That’s a pretty diverse top tier, and they don’t dominate over the rest of the cast. Besides Makoto, there supers aren’t nearly as broken as YCK, and they’re easier to punish and are more flawed.

I don’t see why Alex/Oro/Ryu couldn’t be in this new top tier, just because they’re characters that are raped by the old top tier, and that top tier would be gone.

82

Why ban YCK? are we gonna ban dudley/urien/mak also? learn to deal with them. the game’s more fun that way. if you can’t beat em, join em. whats stopping all of you from playing YCK?

this thread is pointless and unnecessary. it went from hypothetical balance changes to ban YCK.

close thread?

edit: final pt. i bet most of you don’t even play at high enough level where the tiers really affect your matchups.

83

Nothing. But that’s not the point.

One person suggested that idea with any remote seriousness.

That’s not the point either.

84

To make one thing clear: I got Shou whining nonstop on how VF5 is not balanced, I guess he knows better then most so I’ll leave it at that. His other complaint is the vast amount of Kage’s he’s seeing in the arcades in Japan.

As for GGXX:AC most characters are mid tier yes, though 3 are god tier: ultimate offense: Eddie, ultimate defense: Baiken and ultimate zoning: Testament, these titles were given by ogawa for some reason:P

I think that an attempt to balance out Third Strike would turn every character into a basic one(like Ken) and thereby would make the game extremely boring.

Though I do think Hugo should be replaced by Potemkin:P

85

That would be an easy way to do it, yes. But as it stands, you’d agree the characters are diverse, yes? Well then it should just be a case of giving characters more of what they, not some of what they don’t.

e.g. As it stands, Akuma does too little damage for the damage he receives. The solution is obvious. Increase strength (not advisable) or, increase stamina.

86

Gouki does a lot of damage, not to mention his higher offensive speed. In some way he’s kinda like a shoto yun(demon rage). It’s just that most beginning players tend to play defensively with him due to his lack of stamina:P

Priority and strength aren’t the only things that make a character. Some characters have a giant loophole in their abilities, chun li’s jump attacks being a shining example. Ken on the other hand has no such loophole because he’s so basic.

87

No, they aren’t. But they certainly contribute, and making either one of them better can only make the character better.

I don’t see what you’re trying to argue here. The game has diversity? Yeah, understand this.

88

No, because the game is diverse, some characters have loopholes in their game.

89
  1. Stop saying people are calling for YCK to be banned. ONE person in this thread said that, and I’m pretty sure it was in jest. Jesus.
  2. We all know that 3rd Strike is “balanced” (even though it really isn’t), and that there’s never going to be another SF3 game. However, any game can always be more balanced, so this discussion is just for fun and theory. If you don’t like it, don’t post. If you don’t think it belongs in Strategy, move it to FG Discussion.
  3. We all know that EVERYBODY :lovin: 3rd Strike (even though not all of us really do), so quit treating this topic like someone is committing blasphemy by even insinuating that 3rd Strike can be improved upon.

Balances:

Yun::
–Builds 20% less meter from whiffed normals.
–Far HP damage 19–>15
–SA3 bar length 1.8–> 3.0 (same as You-Hou), and drains 50% faster.
–SA1 Damage: 53–>40, now resets Juggle counter
–SA2 Damage: 43–>48, now down to two stocks, does not juggle
–Genei-Jin Air Normals now longer do the same damage as non-GJ Air Normals. Damage reduction by 33%
–All Ground GJ normals do 50% damage as non-GJ Ground Normals.
–Genei-Jin Special Moves Damage:
-Zesshou Hohou (QCF+P) damage: 13(5,4,4) --> 9 (4,3,2)
-Kobokushi (QCB+P) damage: 17–> 10
-Tetsuzan Kou (DP+LP) damage: 10(5,5)–>7(4,3)
-DP+MP~HP damage: 13(5,8)–> 9 (4,5)

Chun::
–Can no longer get Defensive Bonus from PA
–Takes about 5% more damage
–Stun Meter 10% smaller
–Hakkei (B+HP) damage: 19–> 14, builds 20% less meter on whiff or hit
–D+MK, less active frames, damage 13–>11
–Air HP/HK damage 19–>16
–SA1 damage: 45 (17 hits)–> 50 (10 hits), cannot juggle, Bar length 2.1 --> 2.8
–SA2 damage: 54 --> 38, less start-up invincibility frames. Bar length 2.6 --> 2.4
–SA3 replace Tensei Renka with Hazan Tenshou Kyaku. Bar length 3.2 (Same as Hyper Bomb), damage 68, some active frame invincibility, uses up all Juggle points.

Ken::
–Jump HP/HK damage: 19/19 --> 16/17
–Jumping Forward HP damage: 19 --> 17
–Far HP damage: 19–>17
–Close MK/HP/HK damage: 16/19/22 --> 15/17/19
–D+HP/HK damage: 19/19 --> 17/18
–Shoryuken Damage: LP 22–>20, MP 23–>22, HP 25–>24 (all same damage as Ryu)
–Air Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku Damage: 22(11,11) --> 19(10,9); EX 33 (11,11,11)–> 27 (10,9,8)
–SA1 damage: 55–>50, Bar Length: 2.8–>2.4
–SA2 damage: (Default/MAX) 54/68–>56/70, Bar Length: 2.6–>2.8
–SA3 Bar Length: 2.0–>2.2, Stocks 3–>2

Makoto::
–Stun Meter 5% longer
–Neutral Throw Damage: 14–>17
–Back/Forward Throw Damage: 17–>19
–Jumping Forward HP Damage: 22–>19
–Fukiage (DP+P)::
-Damage (LP/MP/HP/EX): 15/18/21/20–> 17/19/22/24
-Greater horizontal hitbox
-10% less stun damage
-Uses up one more juggle point
–Karakusa (HCB+K): 4 more start-up frames
–SA1: Damage 69–>74, more start-up invincibility, 50% damage reduction when used in a combo, Bar Length 3.0–>3.2
–SA2: Damage 49–>44, Bar Length 2.2–>2.4
–SA3: Bar Length 2.3–>2.0, 5 more invincible frames at start-up, takes 10% more damage

Yang::
–Close HP damage: 12(3,9)–>15(6,9)
–D+MK damage: 7–>9
–SA1 damage: 62–>54, Bar Length 3.0–>2.5, Does full-damage against aerial opponent (like in 2nd Impact), less recovery frames
–SA2 damage: 42–>40, Bar Length 2.6–>2.5
–SA3 Bar Length 1.6–>1.8

Dudley::
–Takes about 5% more damage
–Standing MP/HP damage: 8/20–>10/18
–D+MK/HK damage: 8/14–>11/16
–Ducking (HCF+K): Invincible to high and mid-level attacks for 10 frames; invincibility is lost if canceled into Ducking Straight § or Ducking Upper (K) within the first 10 frames. **Still vulnerable to throws
–Short Swing Blow (HCB+K) damage: (Normal) 27–>25; (EX) 27(4,4,19)–>30(5,5,20); Can now evade mid and low-level attacks during backdash of move
–SA2 damage: (Default/MAX) 50/58–> 52/64, has 10 invincibility frames during start-up (like Ducking) but unlike Ducking, must wait 10 frames before mashing P to increase hits/damage.
–SA3 damage: 38–>35

Urien::
–D+MP damage: 8–>11
–F+MP damage: 11–>14
–F+HP damage: 17–>19
–SA1: Damage 58–>66, more start-up invincibility, Stocks 2–>1
–SA2: Damage 39–>45, negates regular projectiles (not EX or SA) without losing a hit, Bar Length 2.2–>2.5
–SA3: Hits/Absorbs 5 times now instead of 6

Oro::
–PA now less start-up, drains stun meter 25% faster
–Niou Riki (HCB+P), faster start-up, now has EX version: 30 damage(9,8,7,6)
–Kishin Tsui (EX SA1) damage: 58–>68
–SA2: Bar Length 2.2–>2.0
–SA3: Bar Length 2.8–>3.0

Akuma::
–F+MP damage: 11(6,5)–>15(8,7)
–SA3 damage (ground/air): 53/56–>60/65
–Kongou Kokuretsu Zan (D,D,D+2P with MAX meter): now does full damage on close/aerial opponents hit by the initial lightning strike
–Shun Goku Satsu (LP,LP,F,LK,HP with MAX meter): instant start-up at point-blank range

Ryu::
–Takes about 5% less damage
–Stun Meter 10% longer
–Hadouken (normal/EX) damage: 8/16–>10/20
–Slightly more invincibility on Shoryuken start-up
–Air Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku (LK/MK/HK/EX)damage: 14/16/17/25(5,5,5,5,5)–>17/20/22/32(7,7,6,6,6)
–Joudan Sokutou Geri (HCF+K): Slightly faster start-up on MK/HK versions
–F+MP damage: 12(5,7)–>17(7,10)
–SA1: Damage 42–>45, Bar Length 2.8–>2.5
–SA2: Damage 76–>88, slightly more invincibility frames, 50% damage reduction in combos, Bar Length 3.2–>3.4
–SA3: negates regular projectiles (not EX or SA) without losing a hit,

Elena::
–D+MK: damage 10–>13, now Super Cancellable
–D/DF+HK: damage 14–>17
–F+MP: damage 14–>16, slightly larger vertical hitbox
–F+MK: damage 11–>14, slightly larger horizontal hitbox
–B+HK: now hits as an overhead
–Rhino Horn (HCF+K): Slightly less startup frames
-MK/HK version damages: 29/27–>27/29
–Mallet Smash (HCB+P): Slightly more active hitting frames
-EX version damage: 25(17,8)–>28(20,8)
–Scratch Wheel (DP+K): EX version now has a few invincibility frames
–Lynx Tail (RDP+K): LK/MK/HK/EX damage, 8/18/18/19–>14/18/21/25
–Spin Scythe: EX version followup damage (nothing/QCB+K/QCB+KK): 29/28/30–>28/30/32

Alex::
–In general, a few frames less recovery on all HP/HKs…
–Jump MP/MK/HK damage: 11/13/17–> 13/17/21
–F+MP now an overhead
–F+HP: longer vertical hitbox
–B+HP: unparryable, bigger grab hitbox, can grab crouching and aerial opponents within range
–Power Bomb (HCB+P) LP/MP/HP damage: 23/26/29–>27/30/33, slightly less start-up, now has EX version (40 damage) which has same amount of start-up as old HP Power Bomb.
–Power Backdrop (HCB+P behind foe) LP/MP/HP damage: 26/29/33–>33/36/40, now has EX version (46 damage).
–Spiral D.D.T (HCB+K): damage 23–>30, grab hitbox slightly bigger, HK version can catch aerial opponents.
–Air Knee Smash (DP+K), now has slight invincibility during start-up
–Slash Elbow (ch.B,F+K): (LK/MK/HK/EX) damage 14/17/20/22–>16/19/22/25
–SA1: 1-frame start-up, like Gigas, Bar Length 3.2–>3.0
–SA2: moves forward more, Power Bomb at the end now has vacuum effect
–SA3: now invincible throughout jump until feet hit the ground

Ibuki:
–Takes slightly less damage (now on the same damage tier as Yun/Yang)
–PA now unblockable
–Jumping Forward HK damage 13–>15
–Close MK damage 14–>12
–Kubi Ori (QCF+P) unparryable
–Raida (HCB+P) unblockable
–SA2 (close/far) damage: 63/38–>70/45

Hugo:
–Only needs 3, not 4, PA to reach his maximum Defense
–F/B Throw: Damage 23–>27
–Jump D+HP Damage 14–>21
–D+MP/MK/HP Damage 13/14/17–>16/17/20
–D+HK now an overhead
–Giant Palm Bomber (QCB+P): LP version now linkable from LP chains. All versions do 10% more stun damage.
–Monster Lariat (QCF+K): EX version now has brief mid-level invincibility and allows juggles on hit
–Ultra Throw (HCB+K) damage 10–>15
–Moonsault Press (360+P) LP/MP/HP damage: 35/37/41–>38/41/45
–Meat Squasher (360+K): faster start-up, damage 23–>26
–Shootdown Backbreaker (DP+K): now has EX version that homes in (to about 1/2 screen range) on the opponent (Damage 29)
–SA1: Damage 84–>90, Bar Length 3.1–>3.4
–SA2: Now invincible for 12 frames after start-up
–SA3: Now resets the juggle counter

Necro:
–New Target Combo: B+MP, DB+HP (non-cancellable)
–Slightly better defense
–Back Throw Damage 14–>19
–Drill Kicks (D+K in air) now descend faster
–Rising Cobra (QCB+K): Lower and mid-level invincibility briefly after start-up
–Tornado Hook (HCF+P): Less recovery overall
–Snake Fang (HCF+K): Now unblockable, increased recovery, vulnerable hitbox along his arm
–SA1: stocks 1–>2
–SA2: 1 frame start-up, damage 66–>70

Remy:
–10% longer stun meter
–New Neutral Throw, a mashable grab that leaves him at +10 frame adv
–Far standing MP damage 8–>11
–D+MP/MK/HP/HK damage 8/8/14/14–> 10/11/16/17
–F+MK damage 11–>13
–Light of Virtue (ch.B,F+P/K) (normal/EX) damage: 8/16–>10/20
–Rising Rage Flash (ch.D,U+K) (LK/MK/HK/EX) damage: 17/19/20/26–>20/22/25/29
–Cold Blue Kick (QCB+K): Damage (normal/EX) 17/22–>21/26, less recovery
–NEW COMMAND THROW (HCB+P) which is basically his old Neutral Throw but far easier to juggle afterwards.
–SA1: Damage 43–>51
–SA2: Damage 51–>60
–SA3: 10-frame start-up invincibility, countering hitbox active IMMEDIATELY after start-up and last until he puts his knee down, does full damage against air opponent, Remy is invincible once the counter is triggered

Q:
–Default defense is about 5% higher…each defensive power-up is also slightly higher.
–New Target Combo: B+MP, B+HP (non-cancellable, juggles)
–D+LP/LK/MK damage 2/2/11–>4/5/14
–10% more meter for whiffed/hit crouching attacks
–D+LK and D+MK now special-cancellable
–D+HP now super-cancellable
–B+HK now super-cancellable
–Dashing Overhead Attack (ch.B,F+hold P) now does same damage as Dashing Head Attack and now super-cancellable
–Dashing Leg Attack (ch.B,F+hold K) has more active hit frames
–Capture & Deadly Blow (HCB+K) has slightly more horizontal grab range
–SA2 Bar Length 3.0–>2.8, Damage 67–>72
–SA3: (QCF+P) attack is now linkable from any juggle/special, (QCF+K) now has instant start-up and increased horizontal grab range

12:
–Takes slightly better damage (completely on par with Remy now)
–Neutral Throw does more stun damage
–Back Throw damage 17–>20
–New Target Combo: D+MK, D+HK
–B+MK now cancellable to all SA and specials, less recovery, damage 11–>14
–D+MP/MK/HP/HK damage: 8/8/14/13–>10/10/17/15
–NOW HAS AIR CHAINS…cannot do full magic series though.
Chains go: Light Attack–> Light Attack–> Medium Attack --> Finisher (Any air normal/special/SA)
–Air Dash works differently. During Air Dash,
-Press U (UB~UF) and 12 will catch some air which cancels his air dash and floats him slightly up. Good for baiting DPs and anti-airs. You will drop straight down but you can cancel into any air-special/SA
-Hold F when flying into the wall to bounce and fly off the wall (12 will swoop lower, however)
-Press D to cancel out of Air Dash immediately and quickly drop straight down. You cannot attack out of this until you touchdown.
–Air HP/HK damage: 14/17–>17/19
–N.D.L (QCF+P) damage (Normal/EX): 8/11–>11/15
–A.X.E (QCB+P, tap P): All versions of A.X.E. do 15% more damage. Yeah, all of them.
–D.R.A (QCB+K): (Normal/EX) damage 16/17–>20/23. All versions now knockdown on hit. EX version will home-in on the opponent.
–SA1: Juggles aerial opponents better
–SA2: Bar Length 2.7–>2.5
–SA3: Bar Length: 3.2–>3.0. Less start-up to the transformation. 12 can now use EX moves of copied opponent at the cost of 1/3 total of his time bar. 12 now has 50% greater attack and defense of the person he copies (in 3S it’s normally 25%-33%). 12 no longer takes extra damage when reverting back.

90

I agree with most of those changes, with two exceptions. 10 frames ducking in invincibility for Dudley seems a bit, uh, good. But it’s difficult to tell. Also, the Ryu changes over-all seem to make him a bit of a ridiculous tank.

91

Excellent job, keep going.

92

Hmm, for Dudley maybe so…maybe if you added a little more recovery to Ducking it’d be okay.
I also think it’d be okay as long as he kept some start-up for his Ducking Upper and Ducking Straight.
I just wanna give him SOME kind of useful boxing evade move. I mean, just about every boxer in 2-D and 3-D that’s worth a damn has some kind of evade move. Yes, I know there’s also parrying, but boxers don’t really parry as much as duck and weave.
I mean, even Balrog who’s as dumb as a box of hammers and has a brain-dead, straight-forward approch has TAP and Buffalo Headbutt to evade…Dudley is supposed to be an intelligent, speedy boxer and yet his Ducking move has never been worth a damn…:arazz: I guess if you tried to give Ducking some invincibility, knowing Capcom we’d end up with some kind of dumb glitch exactly like Roll Cancelling…

93

Sums up this thread

EDIT: ryu should be a tank… the whole street fighter game started out with ryu lol

94

Dude, you rock.

Q
–Defense should be 7-10% higher, he’s a fricking robot.
–Capture & Deadly Blow (HCB+K) should also has 3-4 frames less startup on all strengths.

Remy
–Lower EX comsumption rate for Light Of Virtue.
–More meter given for Light Of Virtue on hit.

Dude you have done a really good job.
I created some ideas for Sean a few pages back. Can you try and implement them into your balance changes?

95

He doesn’t really need all these. All I would change for Q is give him a higher base defense, make SAI start up as fast as SAII and juggle for more hits, make back + roundhouse comboable, and make overhead and low dash punches come out faster and be safe on block. I guess making his low moves deal a bit more damage is a good idea too.

96

Reduce the frames on Seans Hadouburst after he tosses it
Reduce the frames on Twelves taunt
Ibuki’s dragonkick should knockdown so its safe
Take Aegis reflector out of the game
Replace Remy with Guile

97

Thank you

98

Why reduce the bar length/damage of Yang’s SA1/SA2? That makes no sense.

99

yangs ex-slashes should do a bit more damage/stun or have less damage scaling on his SAIII combos(still some though).:sweat:

make his teleport slightly faster so you can actually use it in offensives(jab reset from rolling kick,after a knock down)as of now every setup I’ve seen for it the opponent can just grab you out of before you can setup any attack after the teleport.:annoy:
make yangs punch chain do more damage.

Also,give Alex more hp,is it me or are there lots of vids where alex dies by 1-4 damage of Kens SAIII and alex is a body builder he can take punishment.

oh man I must be high but how about this, Make Alex’s down+fierce(in air) an Air Grab!, if it connects he’ll grab them and powerbomb from mid air.:looney:

100

Return of Shiki, can you finish your balance list?
It was extremely interesting.

I made some suggestions for Sean in post 50.