Here’s my question to Andy and Kim :
Both your match up estimation an Haritsuka An’s aren’t too optimistic. Nothing horrible (as long as you don’t meet Guile), but it makes Bison look like a very so-so character.
Is Bison really suited to win tournaments ? Is it different whether counterpick is allowed or not ?
In theory… it’s supposed to work.
But only in theory.
Apart from the “spam lp devil’s reverse to build meter”, the rest won’t guarantee a thing in that matchup. Using a teleport is completely desperate, unsafe, and just plain mindfucking.
Crossing up with Devil’s Reverse almost never works because you’ll either eat an FK (which isn’t so hard to time right), or just FA/SB/cr.fierce (it hits) dic on his landing.
And yeah, EX PC works on Guile from a proper distance. From too close you might not get punished by U2, but you’ll get thrown or combo’d from a jab anyway.
You have to play it lame to win. Building meter, and using EX.
I said EX SK at midscreen, not fullscreen.
EX PC works at the right distance, on the right moment (even if you don’t hit him, you’ll be safe, and upclose, and dic IS better upclose… you’re not playing vs fucking zangief)
You don’t get raped in the corner of if he gets close, unless you get scared and just turtle. You have a teleport, and you have great mobility. Use it. He can’t jump at you without eating s.hk or c.hp from upclose. He can’t charge at you without eating a well timed short SK.
Teleport will almost 100% never work on any character. It’s a mindfuck tactic. Even if they’re not expecting it, you’ll probably eat a jab or something. And “huge combo” from Guile? Only if you’re playing vs Dagger_G. For one, they weren’t charging in the right direction, and secondly: you don’t do that shit when they’re charging down, or you’ll eat an FK, obviously. It has to be well timed. It’s unsafe no matter what, but well timed… and you get punished with a jab or something, and still get close to him.
Also, the U2 bullshit I mentioned was just as a desperate measure. If you read him well and he attempts a slower move, U2 will beat it. How the fuck does he air throw if he’s on the ground mid-animation? He doesn’t.
Guile beats DR clean, yes. There’s no arguing there. Another of those: “hey, I just made you lose your back charge, but now I’m going to be punished with a normal anyway” trades.
Ever played chess? Sometimes it’s cool to trade the queen for a pawn, if their pawn is about to kill your king.
[media=youtube]ORpXVN766W4[/media]
5.18 in the video.
Sure not right in his face, but it can be punished up close.
Guile can’t punish that. He’d lose charge (no sb or U2), and his long range normals are too slow to catch him on recovery.
He could auto-correct a U2, but it’s pretty obscure, specially if you time it right (right on point with absorbing an SB). Most Guiles will start blocking the other way, and lose the charge.
That Pyscho Punisher was blocked the wrong way.
Go frame by frame on it. He actually got hit during PC recovery. He was blocking the wrong way, but he wasn’t blocking at all, since he was still recovering. It was a punish.
I…don’t understand most of what you’re saying.
Hoping your opponent just punishes you with jab is not good advice. Even if he just punishes you with just a jab, that easily leads into a block string ending with boom or standing fierce, and you lost whatever ground you tried to gain.
Yes, random ultra occasionally lands. But Guile has no reason to perform a slow move unless you’re already in range, and …it’s still a random ultra.
How is this a trade? Instead of eating boom chip, you’re eating a crouching fierce and pushed back out.
And apparently you know all of this doesn’t work, so that’s why it feels like you’re trolling.
I’m no expert on Bison, but like 90% of this is wrong. Ex-SK won’t work at midscreen against Guile. Sorry for the typo, but the point remains the same. It only works from about st. mk distance. Ex-PC CAN work but it’s so space dependent and any good Guile is constantly moving in and out of certain ranges so if he doesn’t block, it’s a punish, if he does block, more than just the tip and it’s another punish.
Bison isn’t zomg super effective against Guile up close since the most he can do is two scissors for chip whereas Guile can chip the entire game. He can also guess a flash kick to either basically win or lose the game (he hits, it does enough damage that it makes it near impossible for Bison to come back, he misses he eats a lot of damage). Being close and mixing in crossups IS Bison’s best chance in the matchup though.
It’s easy for Guile to push Bison back in the corner. Bison gets chipped all day by sonic boom and can’t do anything about it. Once he gets him in the corner, he can do safe sonic boom strings if he wants to (doesn’t really matter though since he can just play Turtle Guile and still win). Guile never has to charge Bison.
Teleport will never work against Guile. You can teleport before he throws a sonic boom, land behind him, and he still has time to throw you. This + sonic booms pushes you all the way back fullscreen. It will never “mind fuck” anyone good.
Also, what move do you expect Guile to do where he gets blown up by U2?
I have no ideas then.
I pass you guys the ball. What do we do vs Guile then?
[media=youtube]APgxHJHeDeM]YouTube - lsy9983 [Bison] vs Lkia [Guile[/media]
[media=youtube]vFb4XshTnB4]YouTube - lsy9983 [Bison] vs GameOutttt [Guile[/media]
[media=youtube]JeIoZ6BA6iw]YouTube - lsy9983 [Bison] vs America CNT [Guile[/media] (shittier Guile)
Apparentely, not much. It’s mostly just based on good reads, predicting sonic booms at close range, and jumping before they come out to land close to him and do whatever we can.
One thing is common in all those videos: we have the advantage upclose. You can’t deny that shit. Dic is much better at close range. If you have an issue with all of my theoryfighting, please post something useful on the matchup. I wanna know as much as the next guy.
Also: [media=youtube]c_tDcFm0VSQ#t=1m17s[/media] (Empty DR makes c.HP whiff? Gotta test it in Super, seems like a valid way to get in)
And one other thing: at s.HK distance, guile has to guess whether you’ll throw s.hk/s.mk out, or if you’re going to jump on him. They usually stop for a moment to antecipate a jump so they can do c.hp. Whatever their choice is, doing a s.mk beats most of their ground game except for flashkicks. It beats sonic booms on startup, and his crouching moves apart from c.mp (which probably stuffs s.mk). Or, he can focus. Still, it’s one of the few situations where guile is forced to make a guess. Doesn’t make it easier on Bison, but at least it adds some odds.
I’ve already posted my opinion on the matter, and anyone is free to correct me. Matchup is approximately 7-3 in terms of tools, but feels more like 5.5-3.5 in terms of difficulty. Kinda like how Rog is 5-5, but feels like 7-3.
Against Guile, get in st. mk range. Poke with st. mk and stuff sonic booms. Your footsies do well at this range and you prevent Guile from throwing sonic boom. If I were Guile, I’d throw 90% jab boom since it’s the hardest for Bison to deal with. Once you get close enough, you can focus absorb booms and dash into crouching shorts, but Guiles are wary of throwing booms at this range. You can also try to crossup, but watch out for airthrow or early flash kick. Once you knock him down (however you can do it), pressure the hell out of him. Get him in the corner or crossup all day. Once Bison gets Guile in the corner, it’s pretty much 7-3 for Bison if you can keep Guile there.
It wasn’t a punish. Go to the lab and try it. Even with reversal timing its not fast enough. I have labbed it myself several times and the bot blocked it every time.
Worst case scenario is that Ex.Pyscho Crusher is -16 on block, Pyscho Punisher has a start up time of 1+21.
why must this amazing thread graciously started by kim, with great input from andre have to go the way of the troll :(.
question : the last time i saw Andre vs dhalsim i noticed he did different strength sk including ex(all 2 hits). is this to get in and push him to the corner? it seems as though the sim has limited options to punish it too.
I shouldn’t even be answering a moron, but clearly, the only troll here is you. Either that, or you have no fucking clue what a troll is. Refrain from posting idiotic shit if you’re not gonna say anything decent.
I didn’t test it and only guessed from the looks of the video. It can be deceiving. But clearly, you’re right.
Framewise, it makes perfect sense.
Also, at around 5:19 right after the Ultra freeze, and before it hits, you can see (hilarious pic) that Haritsuka An is basically offscreen, and Kuma is almost not even visible. Still, just for a bit there, you can see Kuma standing, and walking in the wrong direction (1P > 2P). I didn’t see it thoroughly.
(5th edit): If Kuma tried to jump, would he be hit anyway? I mean… if U2 can juggle, then it can probably hit an opponent on the very first frames when they’re leaving the ground. No?
I’ll take your word for it man. Like you’ve said your frame data makes perfect sense. I’d go re-test it if I could but I’ve been unable to get on as of late.
PP can definitely catch opponents in pre-jump frames.
I play against Tatsu’s Vega countless times, in sf4 and ssf4
Andre and Kim are correct about a majority of things they have posted
Vegas weird hitbox and amazing cr. strong makes the fight 5-5
The risk and reward for either side is about the same i believe
Usually the guy that has to walk forward more, ends up losing
Ribxus isn’t a troll, he’s just annoying because he thinks he has all the answers.
Please, can we just let this dude talk and ignore him? Let him post/spread misinformation, don’t get into debating this dude.
Lets not derail a thread that could be extremely valuable for this community.
short question:
why do the most bison players use 3 or 4x cr. short into scissors?
is it because of the low hit?
if so, why not cr. short, 2 cr. jabs, cr. short and than scissor kicks? only works after a jump in of course but if you’re near and know you can hit, why dont they use 2x cr. jab, cr. short, scissors? does more dmg, not a lot more but still more… and the combo is much easier instead of linking 3 or 4 crouching shorts 
so why that combo ?
for everyone who dont know, raw cr. jab does 30 dmg while raw cr. short does 20 dmg
I think overall bisons a really solid character however just like everyone else in this game… he runs into some really lame matches…
As for being suited to win tournaments… yea i dont see why not, if uve played bison since arcade sf4, u should probably be a specialist by now… working on the difficult matchups should always be ur highest priority
However, i do feel that with Bison, i do better in team tournaments as opposed to singles, but that can be subjective
im sure most of u guys feel that way sometimes too