Ask Kim1234 about random Bison sh*t!

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
101

I lost to some Fei longs yesterday so I took some time in training mode to find out some O/S’s that will work vs backdash and reversal chicken wing.

Gagapa:

O/S roundhouse doesn’t work if you’re doing it after a low jab. Any standing O/S will lose to reversal chicken wing except for O/S stand short

So anyway what I found in the lab:

  1. to punish reversal backdash with max damage by using an O/S = low jab --> low jab+slide. (However this loses to reversal chicken wing) so… O/S low fierce cancel to super works if you have a charge!

  2. low jab–> low jab+low strong punishes backdash and you can react to a whiff chicken wing and slide on reaction to punish him!

I tested it using only reversal short chicken wing though , had to leave the house

I’ll test later with reversal forward , roundhouse , and ex chicken wing

HellTPM: have you tried using neutral jump roundhouse as an anti air? Low fierce should work and anti air ex psycho crusher, you’re spacing is going to have to be correctly spaced to do this though. Try jump forward fierce punch also as an air to air

Mariodood: it’s too balanced, all combos do the same damage, and there is less BS so it’s just a turtlefest sometimes. Now instead of getting hit by random shit and losing and starting the next round fresh, people are random and just have to wait till the rounds over cause that’s how they roll

Somniac:

Accept the guile match and stick to your strategy . Even if I lose in tournament to a guile, I’ll know what I did wrong or what is wrong with my gameplan

I don’t like to depend solely on my reactions. That’s why I don’t pick ultra 2 vs Abel or cammy.

Psych0sh0t:

Vs Blanka , do low jab vs short horizontal balls then dash in to do a chain combo back into scissors. Punish other balls with low forward. You are hitting them before they reach you. Use O/S stand forward to stop backdash , keep your charge and do reversal ex scissors if he hits you with ex up ball.

Turtle when you life is even, attack when it’s in your favor

Vs boxer: hit and run, you have no real crazy advantage.

Vs Honda: use stand forward mostly . Dont make it more complicated. Watch out for his Jump ins cause jump jab and jump strong beats any anti air you have that’s not ex psycho. Always keep in mind even if you block an ex headbutt you’re in a terrible position . Making up that 2% chip damage is hard. Poke and play keepaway. If you beat a Honda any other way, that Honda sucks

Hey guys give me some stuff to test. I need some out of the box things to test out. I still haven’t done anything with O/S ultra 2 off of jump or low jab yet

102

Thanks. Also, is it safe to try and go on the offensive against against Honda when he has no meter?

103

You tell me.

Put bison on record mode and knock down Honda with various knockdown moves. Figure out what sequences are safe and what limits honda’s options on wake up

104

Thanks for responses so far. Here’s my question:

As a player in general I like to keep my offense low-risk in order to force mistakes w/o leaving myself open to damage. At the same time this kind of leaves me with a basic style, and I have trouble getting damage in quickly. What do you think are Bison’s most useful mixups in terms of reliability and safety?

105

I want to start playing M.Bison seriously but I’m a little confused on which basic BnB:s I should be using. After a blocked J.HP/HK I usually go crlp stlp crlk lksk, I switch the crlk for crmk for successful frametraps sometimes, I guess st.hp is also nice after a blocked j.hp since it can safely frametrap into cr.lk/mk sk. Right?

My question actually is, if I were to learn only 5 combos, with or without jumpin, with or without charge, and frametraps, which combos should I like always do, and also, where in the combos can I choose to throw and or do a frametrap to be successful?

Its a very nooby question, but im interested to see how YOU will answer it!

106

Post edited (#86)

107

Kim, according to Shizza’s Pro tips on the front page, Dic’s c.fierce is actually good for frame traps.

How is that?
If we go by frame data alone, it’s absolutely horrible. Far st.fierce far surpasses it.
Is it the hitbox? The pushback?

What is it? With that much startup, how can you actually get anyone on a frametrap?
Even at +7 from a close jab… nothing with a startup higher than 9 will actually be decent for a frametrap.

Specially at -2 on hit. That’s hilarious.

108

It’s the spacing for c.HP. I’ve personally been trying to play with crouch tech punishes with it.

109

But it has less range than c.mp, c.mk, s.mk, s.mp… really… than so many normals. It can’t be good “just because it does 110dmg”. That can’t be the reason.

Even chun can punish you with a super if you hit her. It’s silly. Shitty example, but clearly… c.hp is worthless. You can’t even meaty with it as a ranged attack, since it maxes it’s range on it’s 2nd-3rd active frame, or so. Not the 4th. And by then, it probably only catches standing opponents.

Also, can’t be canceled into specials, only super. Cr.mp is the best choice the way I see it. C.mk is faster, but same thing in that regard. At a semi-close but not pointblank range, even f.hk is better.

110

On CH or meaty it can be FADC’d into c.LK. Whether it’s worth it … dunno.

111

It is definitely a VERY situational frametrap, and I personally don’t fuck with it at all. But I think the value is in c.fierce’s really weird hitbox – it starts super low and it rises. As such, it’s a viable option if you’re trying to catch someone who wants to stick out a mid/high, moves that might stuff alot of Bison’s other options (c.strong, s.rh, s.fwd, etc.) C.fierce can strike from underneathe that sort of button.

Personally I think shizza just fucked up and he meant to say close s.hp. I mean, if he was going to list a Bison frametrap in an attempt to explain frametraps in general, why pick the most obscure one possible?

112

There’s also the trade-cr.hp into U1 OS strat that floated on this board awhile ago. Seems pretty lulzy but it looks useful.

113

Shane meant "close standing fierce"
this is a fact

114

Never knew about that one… but considering it causes 22 hitstun (if I’m not mistaken), and when you trade, you get some hitstun on ya… U1 hits on the 11th frame. That’s 10 frames of startup. That means you’d have to be in the stunreel for no more than 12 frames.

If you mean this video [media=youtube]7kAbcOmXOAM[/media] , then consider the fact that dan’s c.short does 13 hitstun.
I have no fuckin clue what the rules of trading are. If dan is supposed to eat the full 22 hitstun, then dic should eat the 13 hitstun too. Obviously recovering faster, but not fast enough to pull a reversal Ultra 1 out of his ass.

This game drives me nuts.

[media=youtube]11ek2oWZwFc[/media] here c.fierce hits on ch, making it entirely possible. But it’s so fucking unsafe it’s retarded… The only thing they have to do is use a move with a few more frames of hitstun, and that shit gets blocked.

Still… 7 frames of startup, and has to be done at close range. Mashed cr.tech will easily beat that.

What am I missing here?..

115

Mashing crouch-tech against Bison is generally a really bad idea because many of his common strings have 1- or 2-frame gaps in them. People like to late-tech vs. Bison, and close s.fierce exploits that.

I know that the frame data makes the trap seem a bit counter-intuitive, but just try it in-game. The proof is in the pudding.

116

What about the range?

You do a crossup j.mk, land, cr.tech (c.lk), and then pull off a close.fierce? I can’t see a decent use for the move.
You have to be too close to use it… at throw distance. You either get eaten by a fast normal (not every player goes into the same cr.tech pattern), or you get thrown.

I really can’t see a good use for a frametrap done up close. Frametraps are good upclose if your move is quick (say… an spd).
If the move is slow, what’s the point?

Frametraps are good because they hit your opponent when they’re:
a) trying to jump out of your string
b) “pressing those buttonz” (usually a cr.tech, or a non-invencible special/reversal)
c) attempting a throw (not a cr.tech)

Frametraps work because your opponent thinks he has enough frame advantage to pull something off just because he’s out of blockstun.

Hitting your opponent with a close fierce when you don’t even have enough frame advantage to pull it off safely (I’m never counting with mashed shoryukens nor spds here), is not a frametrap. It’s just pressing a normal and getting lucky with a hit.

Dic only has a few proper frametraps (always considering that frametraps are mostly done as blockstrings, not a “whoops, I just reset my combo and hit you with a counterhit normal” situation):

i) string until pushed back out of opponent’s cr.short range -> (followup)
**i.a) **scissors
** i.b) *c.mk
** i.d) f.hk (beaten by crouching moves when far away; only useful against standing opponents when far away)
** i.e) f.mk (better than f.hk because it hits crouching at longer range, but the opponent still has a 5 frame window to pull something off if you ended the string in anything other than st.short… ryu’s c.mp will stuff this, for example)
*
ii) string with standing shorts (+3 on block) until out of cr.short range -> (followup)
** ii.a) all of the above
ii.b) c.mp (needs the additional frame advantage from standing shorts to be done safely… 6 frames of startup, +3 advantage… that gives your opponent 3 frames to do a move… hopefully anything that quick loses in range to c.mp after the st.short pushback)

Anything else is definitely not a frametrap. Unless it is some sort of obscure counterhit situation. And counterhits, although predictable sometimes (specially AFTER A PROPER FRAMETRAP… not as the frametrap itself), are not viable options.
You know when cr.fierce is viable? After a c.mp CH. That’s leaves you at +9, I believe, making it the perfect situation to pull off a cr.fierce from long range.

117

Good players aren’t going to be doing first-frame crouch techs. They’ll try to time the tech to your string. This frame trap works because it catches them pressing a button at the timing they would use to tech a throw.

If you are playing someone who is literally mashing on throw (which they would have to be doing to throw you out of the HP), you’ll blow them up just by doing block strings.

118

Just as a fyi, the counterhit is from the jumping short, not the crouching fierce. It’s impossible to get a counterhit and trade at the same time.

The throw tech window is fairly long, some people say it’s around 7 frames from when you actually get thrown, but I’m not sure exactly.

The point is, people either mash tech throw on the earliest frame possible, or they’ve learned how to late tech, where they wait until the last few frames to tech the throw. One of the reasons why people late tech is because smaller frame traps will counterhit them. Standing close fierce generally beats those who do the latter. But mashing buttons will beat close fierce.

So:
-frame trap > mash buttons
-mash buttons > close fierce
-close fierce> late tech
-late tech > frame trap

People actually do confirm counterhit combos because they fish for it. Close fierce is one of those ways to fish.

119

Use frame traps after a jump in or after one low short

  1. low jab, stand jab, stand short, stand roundhouse
  2. low jab, stand jab(or stand short), low short, scissors
  3. combo into one hit of short version of scissor kicks, FADC, dash forward, low short x 3, scissors
  4. jump strong x 2, ultra
  5. low strong, stand forward
120

You’re right. I know jackshit about trades, and since the Ryu was the dummy, I got also got confused on the counterhit side.
Still a very obscure frametrap.

Isn’t low strong > standing roundhouse better? It can whiff from very far on crouching opponents though…