Ask Kim1234 about random Bison sh*t!

This post is not directed to fanboys but to people who want to get a true and genuine understanding of how matchups works and in this case SSF4 AE Dictator. Im doing this because i love sf and the competiotion it brings, different styles and minsets, plus I feel like I have to give back in some way…thats my nature also with that said here I go…

There are multiple factors in dertermining a match:
In terms of the player: The players exectution, reaction, how good theyre footsies are, meter management, rushdown or pressure ability, (also how well they deal with crouch tech is something to pay attention to) lack of mistakes and most importantly patience, and not just patience but how your patience is used by holding your ground and having faith in your footsies and not cracking or giving anything away. Having a automatic plan after you craete a situation (not autopilot) Mindgames (if your mentally strong in that area) If the two players are of equal skill. The ego’s of people makes this a very shady area however there are many ways to determine what the skill of a player is. PLAYER POINTS is a great example! PP in conjunction to BP is a great way to determine this but player points mean alot more than bp! Battle Points is grinding and nothing more. Someone who plays alot will have many BP but low PP means alot about that player. Compare PP to BP and you can tell where the skill of that player is and get an understanding of how high a skill level that person is with theyre character. Long sets are some examples of good ways to determine player skill also.
No one is perfect and there is at least one matchup that a person may lack or be a little weak in and its not theyre fault, but how that person ADAPTS to situations is what you study!

In terms of a matchup: HP differences, damage output, limitations vs the character (situations) variables like walk speed, lead holds, lead losses (crucial)

Dont make conclusions to makchups based off personal experience ALONE or tournament alone! Tournaments after all arent the only way to detrmine how good someone is or isnt but 90% of the community think this way and its a terrible mentality if i say so myself.

Dictator vs Yun: If Yun is all out rushing bison down…bison loses. If the bison player can contain the yun player and keep the match at his pace (rushing down but always being concious of his wakeups and punishing them CORRECTLY) bison wins. Its an all momentum match and the only time its lame depends on how much life bison has vs how much yun has as well as meter because 1 bar means no moves can just be thrown out there. Yun’s like to hold super to land combo or command garb into it then finish him off. Be lame and be mobile. Theres no such thing as laming out yun completley but knowing when hes gonna approach and with what but you should be ready to have an answer for those situations. When Yun uses divekicks offensively you cannot do anything but defend and try and get away but when he uses divekick as like a wakeup or defensivley he loses frame advantage. Get meter, space out dive kicks that are just thrown out with st.foward or st. rh at ranges (situational). Knock him down and condtion him not to wakeup with DP then you can pressure more with crouch short and crouch tech blow ups. After you condition them be careful of wakeup EX Command grab though in which case you can dash in and back dash the bait and punish. Lastly most of all Yun hates scissors kick! Get in there! Yun is more afraid of dictators pressure than the other way around believe it or not and when you look at all the variables Its even, slightly advantegous Dictator

Anything anyone would like to add or criticize me about or if theres something they dont agree with its all good. Im still learning as well and these are still forums to reach out to people willing to give back and reach out like kim and myself who are leaders. Aspiration always goes to the people

Everything you said was true bar the PP/BP ratio. Some people don’t always use their main. Some people attempt the C to shining C achievement too. Everything else though I couldn’t agree with more.

@Jeron

See, the problem I see here is that both characters are very much momentum characters, as you correctly appraised. Both characters have a hard time stopping each other once they’re on. The problem in this matchup is that one character (Yun) gets a lot more reward for seizing the momentum than the other (Bison) does.

Bison pressure lasts a while, but doesn’t do scary damage even to a low-health character like Yun unless you get stupid and feed Bison counter-hit and whiff punish combos. If you just chill vs. Bison, you don’t have a lot to fear from LK scissors chip and throws. Eventually Bison will have to readjust his spacing and decide whether to press the attack or bait your escape, and if Yun escapes and touches Bison, the initiative is his once more. Even if he doesn’t get a full combo, Bison is on the run again, and unless the Yun player was needlessly reckless and/or stupid at neutral or on defense, I doubt Yun will have a big life deficit to make up when he gets back in.

Yun, on the other hand, has a LOT more leverage when he finally gets in on Bison. He has access to all the same baiting tech that Bison has, with comparable damage on Bison’s bigger lifebar from standard touches (counter-hit c. MP, c. LK, normal hit or counter-hit divekick), in addition to greater mixup options and much stronger (IMO) conditioning tools. Low-and-close MK divekick is a great conditioning tool against Bison. It safe-jumps EX Psycho Crusher and EX Knee Press, stuffs almost all of Bison’s REACTIVE anti-air normals except vertical j. HK, and if it crosses Bison up, he loses his back charge for his reversals, encouraging Bison to stand block to maximize Yun’s frame disadvantage (even if a throw/c. LK punish is very unlikely) and ensure that Yun doesn’t cross up. With c. LK and divekick to mesmerize Bison into a high-block-low-block mentality, you can punish Bison for his passivity with throws and command throws, making him gradually more desperate and more likely to do something you can bait and punish. Bison really lacks this kind of fear factor against Yun, which would be worth little more than a shrug and a “can’t win 'em all” if it weren’t for the next point.

With this in mind, obviously Bison wants to try and win at midscreen/neutral versus Yun. Back up a bit, let Yun screw up his approach, try and cow him with anti-airs and whiff punishes, and exploit his newfound humility at being punished to seize the momentum and advance on him. Stay midscreen, stay out of the divekick blender, win on footsies. Personally, unless you’re dealing with a really reckless/dumb Yun, I think this is a poor gameplan to rely upon (even if it is basically the only viable one). Even without being reckless with divekicks, Yun has more than enough poking/footsie tools to advance cautiously on Bison at a fairly decent clip, and one knockdown, techable or no, gives Yun plenty of frame advantage to advance to a spacing where Bison’s potential responses are much more awkward.

By contrast, pressing Yun with more aggressive spacing on Bison’s part seems itself pretty dicey. Even if you don’t outright feed Yun a whiff to stomp on for a full combo, one blocked divekick at the wrong range, and you’re back on the run trying to space out for a better look, quickly losing any ground you gained from your advance. Pressing forward against a safe, jumpy character like Yun takes precision on Bison’s part. Yun’s offensive press, by contrast, requires far less prudence; he has many more ways to make Bison whiff than Bison does to make him whiff, and when he’s on, he can stay on longer than Bison can unless he gets way, way, WAY too predictable.

I’m not saying this match is unwinnable or even severely disadvantaged (I have a hard time complaining about ANY matchup in AE after Marvel 3 and its one-touch kills), but I definitely DON’T think it’s in Bison’s favor, all other things being equal. If Bison’s gonna win this match, it’s not gonna be because he was smart and Yun was smart and the matchup was in his favor or even and could have gone either way, but because (a) Yun was smart and Bison was EXCEPTIONALLY smart, or more likely at lower levels (b) Bison was smart and Yun was needlessly reckless and/or stupid in a matchup that he could win just as well conservatively as he could by going berserk.

Yes, I realize Andre vs. Marn isn’t the totality of competitive Bison vs. Yun. No, I do NOT claim to be a high-level competitor or a great Bison technician, nor do I represent my Bison vs. Yun experience as reflective of the whole. I realize that many players will succeed in that matchup where I (currently) fail, but my carefully considered opinion is that this success will be met by playing the player rather than playing the matchup. I think both characters’ relative strengths and weaknesses are easy enough to understand that conclusions about this mostly-new-to-America matchup are pretty safe to draw.

Yun’s power may well be overhyped against the rest of the AE cast, but not against Bison, IMO. As I see it, Yun vs. Bison is Yun’s to lose.

EDIT: But don’t get me wrong, I’ll still be doing my best to win it, and I’ll spend ample time in the lab and on these forums researching ways to keep Yun honest. I’m not surrendering in advance…I just make no illusions about how difficult the task really is.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/FingerCramp/189692461076649
Hay could you guy like this page on Facebook for me i need to get up to 1000 likes every 1 like helps.
SRY kim i dont mean to spam your thread i just need these likes!

Oh yeah to answer some questions, i tried every fucking button to anti air yun, on top of having no yun experience on top of marn tricking me into not picking Yang which i admit i was out smarted there, i mean i dont know i will give the matchup another run around sometime later but i am no longer a Bison player and i have picked up Yun and Yang. Sry guys i will be back someday.

Why!!!

You don’t AA Yun/Yang.
You touch them, and play lame by running away and holding charge. Predict whiffed palms and punish with stomps or even PP (risky business, but easier than a Sonic Boom).

But wait a second, what am I doing here? Coaching a pro player?

Dude, good luck with the twins.

Playing lame is reasonable enough (although I honestly don’t believe it gets you much leverage against a Yun who actually knows the matchup), but trying to punish full-screen palms with headstomp? That’s a recipe for disaster if Yun downloads this tendency and baits you with a fake palm (which hopefully he will, less for the health damage than the psychological damage of “See? You can’t throw ANYTHING at me without getting hurt, even when I’m abandoning my offense!”).

I’d vote for answering whiff palm by just conceding the meter and using the recovery time to walk/dash/CAREFUL whiff LP Crusher to get closer and see how Yun reacts. No sense trying to punish him for building meter defensively when he’ll just build more anyway rushing you down, after he knocks your dumb ass down for your futile attempt to punish palm from full screen. Palm is a bait, pure and simple. Preserve your dignity, and don’t get hooked.

Anything turned into a “tendency” has a “tendence” (pun intended) to be countered soon enough.

Headstomps alone are punished increadibly easily and should be used sparsely in almost every matchup. EX Headstomp obliterates neutral jumps on your wakeup (for the most part) and also rapes other people’s wakeup reversal (say… Guy’s EX tatsu). But these are rare situations. I personally use headstomp very very often on my guard strings. It’s a very unexpected reversal, and not that easy to punish. When I say “often”, I mean: more often than the majority of Dictators I’ve seen. It’s still like once per match or so.

Against Yun? It’s as good as a headstomp for punishing fireballs.
I honestly prefer to just tease them with Devil’s. They’ll stop doing the palms as soon as they feel threatened.

Unless “they”'re Daigo.
In that case, go with Dan. At least you’ll please the crowd with some taunts before getting destroyed.

(Neurosis did give him a bit of work though)

Kim, come to evo man.

Solid stuff. Balrog has always given me issues…this may prove to be some help. Setup after ultra 1 is dirty!

On the U2 topic; jump foward is never really a good option, but perhaps in light of this new change it may create an early mind game. If you focus fireball early and get U2, walk forward and jump to punish the “safe” fireball. In doing this you 1. test anti-air 2.if blocked, set-up block-string crouch tech mind games 3. if hits gain positional advantage + wakeup game. If they don’t fireball and anti-air early game, worst case scenario you eat some dmg but they can’t do any dangerous safe-jump OS(most shoto AFAIK). Feel free to shit all over this idea, but it doesn’t sound horrible and seems like it might put second guessing into the fireball game early on. Just don’t jump at 2 bar ultra ryu >_<

Hi coopa’s brother aka ohayo aka kim1234. I play this game called ssf4 ae and theres this character Bison… hes really cool. Wanted to ask you to evaluate me… oh yeah Andre the daigo killa it’d be nice if i could get your evaluation too. Basically lemme know what could I have done differently or what I was lacking. Maybe even just discussing the matchup would be cool too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPY_qDEX_7s&feature=relmfu - winners final
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrgG2DE4eEE&feature=channel_video_title - grand final

After the yang player reset the set I started to play on tilt especially since it was already a long ass set.

Well i just finished bison’s trials which were fairly easy. The only one i had trouble with was lk x lk x lk sk

yeah that one will seem tricky at first but once you master it, your Bison’s game will be elevated tremendously. It’s probably his most important bnb.

some time inconsistant throw people off guard, specially c.lk…

yeah you drop that sht 2 time and go for frame trap and see what happen…
if BAM he is indeed top player u just get lucky. if nothing he is scrub…(trolling

Fiinally decided to make an account, but it seems like im too late. lol

yah same. But does anyone know about Bison vs Ken in AE? Tips? I seem to have a horrible up hill battle against that character. I have asked around on the Ken forum looking for some people hopefully i can get this match up down so im not scared in tourneys :pleased:

Hi master kim do you coming this EVO ?

want to ask, how to deal with Ryu or Yun pressure especialy good player like Daigo clone.

Well for me personally, Ken is a pretty even matchup. It’s all about baiting him and punishing accordingly. Ken is a shoto that wants to get in, score a knockdown and begin his mixup. It can be really tough to Ken off of you once you get knocked down, because he can pretty much option select all of your escape tools. I would suggest playing a smart rushdown game vs Ken, by getting in, dealing damage and not getting knocked down lol. I can’t really think of much more than that unless there is something specific that you’re having trouble with in the matchup.

ken can’t get in vs bison. just poke him and antiair him . build meter whenever you can. the only things you need to be careful about are random ex air tatsu.

take that replay, the only time kim got damage in round1 was when he tried to get in. in the 2nd round he got damage because he was hit by a random shoryuken+ not blocked jumpins.

even though this is super the match hasn’t changed, ken still has a hard time getting in.

ok thanks :wink: