Does mashing s hk beat Yun’s dive kick if he does tick into divekick like it does vs rufus and cammy? If so and you do it constantly early on theyll have no other choice but to stop and try something less effective.
Though even without that Yun can still command grab or random dragon kick. Yun seems retarded.
so neurosis and others don’t actually discuss match ups etc? =[
i can’t help but shake the feeling that bison just can’t hang with the best. it seems as though characters with good punish options and reversals have an advantage over bison that a good ‘pressure game’ just can’t compensate for, even at the highest level of play.
i wouldn’t mind seeing someone like mago, daigo, momochi etc. take up bison as a main, just to see how much unlocked potential he has or if the ceiling has already been reached (i have a feeling it has)
How would you define “his ceiling”? Characters are only as good as the people that play them. Though some characters are disproportionate in how much skill is required to become really good with a certain character (vanilla Sagat), I think Bison is one of those “directly proportional” characters. If the user is very skilled, he’ll do well with Bison. If not? He won’t. Bison has all the tools he needs to succeed, but it’s up to the individual to mix all of them together and create wins. Sometimes this requires yomi, but it’s doable.
As of now, I think Bison’s not bad in AE. Most of his hardest matches were against characters he couldn’t get in on, and they were all nerfed. Now the best characters have low health (Yun/Yang) or have trouble against Bison historically (Fei). I think Makoto’s gonna be a beast so I don’t know if Bison wins that matchup anymore. Does she have a way to deal with cr. short pressure?
if i was to define ‘his ceiling’, i’d say that it in the same way you would. the fact that bison’s effectiveness is directly proportionate to the player’s skill level.
which is why i want to see the players who people consider to be the ‘best’ take up bison. it wouldn’t be definitive proof of just where bison’s potential ends, but i personally have my doubts as to how dominant players like daigo, mago and momochi (who have a history of dominating in the sf4 series) would be if they all played bison. i don’t think it would be a stretch to then say that if players of that calibre can’t take bison to the top, it’s unlikely anyone else will.
Those characters that are disproportionate also feel like the dumbest fights sometimes. Bison simply doesn’t have any overpowered tool, even in a purely theoretical setting (vaccum). He has no way of forcing damage other than educated read/guesses.
You’ll play against a guy who’s been playing Fuerte for 2 years, and even as he put much work into refining his gameplay, you can’t help but feel cheated when you lose, or worse, get nearly perfected for guessing wrong time after time.
Certain characters can have their entire gameplans revolving around putting you into a specific situation and from then on, it’s a hit or miss; still, the effort always seems safe. If you don’t escape the mix-up, you’re simply caught guessing again.
To me, the most rewarding fights are those where the victor simply had the best footsies. Fighting against fb characters and charge characters to a lesser extent always feels fresh because you feel a genuine effort from both parties to wittle down the opponent’s defense. Then you have the mix-up characters who make your life miserable because their risk reward for getting in is so much greater than yours, and Bison isn’t going to be dealing any damage from afar unless he spaces good roundhouses.
Then you notice the fact that most characters who win tournaments are those who either have an extremely good defensive game, a strong mix-up game, or a bit of both… and you end up with this idea that it requires a lot more work to be consistent with Bison.
SmokeMaxX
I dunno about the Fei MU being Bisons favour. It’s most likely 5-5.
Bison will be a mid-upper tier character in my opinion. He’ll still be strong.
Bentobox ‘you end up with this idea that it requires a lot more work to be consistent with Bison’
I agree with this actually. I see plenty of excellent Bison players from watching various videos and such. I think finding consistency with Bison is one of the biggest challenges with the character.
ex-command grab gives her armour. a bare bones makoto player i know uses it against me.
costs a bar and can be baited, but that’s the situation with most characters anyway.
First off, I apologize to Kim1234 for always cluttering him his thread with my theoryfighting haha. Anyway…
I’m just going by what I heard. I personally have trouble with Fei, but everytime I hear about Fei’s hardest matchups, everyone always mentions Bison.
Yeah, that’s true. But isn’t it part of the pressure to just plain do scissor kicks sometimes? I think if you alternate between the two (in the corner, obviously), it’ll be hard for Makoto to get out of.
I like devil->reset against characters that pressure knockdowns with weak and medium attacks like Abel and Makoto
50-60 dmg is OK to be taken sometimes.
Are you talking about non-ex DR and getting air-reset instead of blocking/TPing?
yes
I’m not saying I abuse this. It’s damage after all. I’m just saying it might help when there’s nothing else to help against strong mixups.
Hi Kim1234,
In regards to the Makoto matchup, I feel that it is similar to Abel.
I believe this is won by rushing down Makoto after a non-techable knockdown.
She has no good reversal for ground pressure, so you can definately abuse her after a throw - I think the key lies to spacing your light scissors to beat her ex karakusa and a throw/counter hit vortex.
For Yun, I find that it completely relies on how the Yun player is playing the match up.
If you know that they dive kick a lot st.HK is gold, but if they play a solid counter hit game then it does hurt to throw it out.
There are a couple of gimmicks that are easy to stop as Bison though, like EX lunge should never work if you have EX yourself and if you’re watching the dive kicks you can see which ones are negative frames on block (the ones that hit high on the hitbox) and respond. I reckon it’s the same basics of the SSF4 matchup for Cammy.
That’s just imo, there are definate flaws in those gameplans but I think that Bison doesn’t have a huge advantage over either character (probably 5.5-4.5 against Yun and 5-5 Makoto)
i dont agree
What do you find difficult about the those two matchups? (situational and generally)
I understand that Makoto and Yun can be played differently according to the person using them, but their ground game isn’t as good as Dictators.
Would be cool to get your opinions on them as you’re playing against vastly superior ones then I get to.
with Makoto, I tend to go for the knockdown, and then play like its Vanilla and I’m facing Vega/Rose…just get in her face, and cMK from a safe distance on her wakeup, then SK, and start looping and mixing up with HS or DR. It isn’t a GREAT process, but works for the most part. I’ve only actually fought one Mak that I didn’t run through in seconds.
Kim, whats your advice on facing Rose when she has that fucking 2x orb Ultra? What should I be doing on wakeup, or just while facing her, when she can activate it at any moment and fuck my world up
when u figure it out kim… i’d like u to forward me the makoto / twins matchup guide
I too am struggling against these 3rd strike characters -___-
I would also love to hear his thoughts on that fight. Even now Makoto at least isn’t quite as free as people try and make her seem, then again I fight an exceptional Makoto locally.
The way it usually goes is he who makes the first big enough mistake loses. I either blow him up or I get blown up.
I hate Makoto too. I’d be raping some at CF, then they’d come back with something new and totally random. I don’t even know when to look out for stuff because it could be so fast.
Yo Kim, I started using that set-up against Abel where he ends up rolling into the corner instead of rolling out. It’s really helpful. Any other character you’d recommend using that set-up on to mess up potential escape options? I know using it on DP characters/Rufus is off limits so far.
Seems to be decent vs Rog without meter from what I’ve tested. He ends up headbutting himself into the corner if he tries EX Headbutt but ex dash punch still knocks Bison out.
This set-up being?