Tutorials can be helpful
But they should in no way ever be the standard let alone expected.
If a player cannot play a game for a few hours and atleast have a basic understanding of what the hell is going on then there’s something wrong with how the game is relaying it’s information.
Info dumps are generally not encouraged in entertainment ever be it in a movie, video game, tv show or even a book. If something needs to be explained then it should be explained through the actual content of the medium which in a game’s case would be through the gameplay.
The average casual player doesn’t like to know they are being taught, you gotta trick them into learning?
I learned where my c.strong hit-box is by playing the game a lot, I guess that’s too complicated.
Hmmm? What?
I’m saying that this is a video game.
If you’re going to be taught anything then it’s best to do it in the ACTUAL GAME.
FUCK.
THAT.
SHIT.
If they don’t want to put in the time to learn, why in god’s name do I care?
I could understand if the information wasn’t clear, but it’s not, it’s in fucking English, clear as day English.
If they need to be handled like children then maybe these are the wrong games for them.
You’re also jumping your own argument, something I’m going to call you out on from now on because whenever you do that it makes the debate confusing as dicks.
Your first argument was “you should learn how to play through playing”, and now you’re saying “you can have tutorial modes, just make the person feel like they’re playing”.
You’re trying to bring consumer psychology into this, and that is not a debate we’re having at this moment.
The debate is “why tutorial mode should be included/not included into a fighting game/why/what’s the point of it and how can we stop it/improve it”.
Well, you know what, the second you pop your disc in the tray, and that title screen says “press start”, you’re playing the goddamned game.
I swear if I have to give SG as an example of something one more time…
In the tutorial mode, they give you a list of things to do to show that you have actually absorbed the knowledge you were just given.
“Here’s how to block a mixup”.
“Okay, you learned how to block a mixup, now actually block these several mixups several times”.
There’s a few suggestions to teach or implement the tutorial in a way that doesn’t say “this is a tutorial” in this thread.
Most other genres “introductory” levels take away things from you or the game is about acquiring power ups and new abilities so you don’t have your whole moveset until the middle or end. That’s what some are suggesting a mode like story mode does that (unless I missed someone saying multiplayer needs to do this, then that person is an idiot).
Of course, fighting games are mostly about playing other people even for the average person. You can’t apply this single player style of teaching into the multiplayer. StarCraft single player campaign does that, StarCraft multiplayer does not prevent you from using units. I found StarCraft single player boring and just read, watched or asked other players for the info and stuck to multi. I didn’t whine about micro, macro and how the game was ill-designed because it rewarded people better at that than me or people who could do 100+APM which I doubt the tutorial/single player mode prepared you for the level real people were at.
The psychology is the whole point. I’m talking in terms of professional game design. If you don’t want to go in those terms, feel free… but remember that you’re only looking at it as a fan, and you’re missing a massive range of knowledge applied to a massive range of games in all genres.
When you’re making a game, these are the kinds of things you want to consider. Seems to me they’re also the kind of things you want to consider when you’re thinking about how games apply to a massively different group of players than the one you’re a member of.
**If you're not considering the psychology of what motivates or demotivates beginners/casuals to play, you're not actually taking a real part in the conversation.**The fuck you talkin’ bout, homie?
You do this everytime.
You can’t argue on a level of someone who understands why fighting games do what, then you go on this tangent about knowing the psychology of this demographic the majority of people here don’t care about, we don’t care about the average casual trying to pick up tekken, because they’re no longer an average casual, they’re a fighting game player now.
Look, if the people who want to go nuts and press buttons a little in a game, they can, if they want to understand the basics of a game while being casual, THEY CAN WITH TUTORIAL MODE, if they want to take it seriously, they can.
You want casuals to learn a fighting game by just playing, but do you have any idea how long that would take time wise?
Fucking forever, it’s much easier to condense the mechanics of a fighting game into an hour long tutorial then ask casuals to just "pick up and play’.
Asking someone to just “pick up and play” is nuts, how in god’s name would they know what they’re doing?
Weren’t you the one that say that you only speak for yourself and only yourself? and now you are here, again speaking for others like if you knew what they like or think
Hell I seen Halo pros body noobs with ridiuclous scores like this.
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MLG players would absoutely destroy anybody in online.
you’re missing the sheer fact that all of us in here were @ one point beginners\casuals ourselves.
we know what it takes to make the leap, well some of us @ least. None of us magically were good, everyone starts @ the bottom and any serious player @ one point had to decide to proceed with it being serious and no longer casual.
not only was I that new player but I have helped several new players along the way and let me tell you its never the execution or the game being too hard. Its always, not enough competition to play. Fighting games are about competition, not about single player modes. Just like Halo\COD brings in tons of casuals online for net play, the very same thing can be done for fighters online and bring the casuals there. However since you’re ignorant as to what makes a good net code, you probably think casuals don’t want to play online.
if there is no one to play a fighting game with, the CPU is usually so crappy for fighers that no one will turn it on. Only pro’s sit in training mode all day. The #1 thing that drives someone to play a fighter is friendly competition either with friends or two pro’s fighting one another. The more access a player has to competition, the more frequently they would play. Especially once the net code gets better for capcom titles, playing online against pros will be the new hot thing for casual players.
OK seriously you’re just not reading… not even the thread title, let me quote it for you.
If you (and apparently most of the people) don’t care about how those people think, why are you in this particular discussion at all?
The psychology is key to the entire thing, and especially the fairly fine point about learning during standard play vs. tutorials that take you out of standard play.
I always try to be civil, but you’re reacting to a point of design that you clearly don’t understand with a ‘nuh-uh!’ It’s tiring.
But they’re not, it’s been discussed to death.
however there can be a perception they are, and people bring up tutorials all the time as a way to increase accessibility, which then leads to the discussion of why tutorials aren’t very good for that, which is directly tied to the psychology of it all.
GOD FUCK
You just did it again, this weird evasive around the block thing.
So, are you agreeing with me, disagreeing, that post doesn’t really clarify anything for me, help me out, man.
This topic thinks of the average casual way too lowly now imo.
Are way talking about a gamer or a random bro with an xbox?
I’m pretty sure I’ve been saying the same thing for the last 2 days, but I’ll say it again, with bullet points.
[LIST=1]
[]Very few games are too hard for beginning players, but some are less friendly than others
[]There is certainly a perception amongst new or casual players that the games are too hard
[]This is partially because of the access to combo videos, etc etc that there is now.
[]This is also partially because the culture, although better than it was 3-4 years ago, can still be exceptionally hostile to new players
[]That being said, some games are a bit ‘overfull’ of features to be desirable to most players, especially new ones.
[](breath for slight subject shift)
[*]On the side subject of how to make the games easier for new players to get into, tutorials sometimes get brought up as good examples of teaching tools. I feel that, especially compared to designing your game with clear communication in mind, tutorials aren’t the best solution to the problem. (*this is the point of contention, I guess?)
[/LIST]
After all that comes a loop around point 7, there’s something not entirely clear to me that makes people really mad about my saying that tutorials aren’t that good a teaching method for new players, or me describing why it’s not.
- Depends on how a person learns best.
Some would rather read (VF4EVO glossary, forums, wikis) or do isolated exercises (in game tutorials, Rip’s Tekken throw break game, the GGXX Millia flash)
Some would benefit if one AI does a lot of normal throws or tick throws so you learn to throw tech or escape throw setups (they’re going to need to see a command list or a light tutorial to at least know how to throw break and other basic commands and it will be obvious it’s teaching them), another floods the screen with projectiles so you learn to move around zoning/keepaway, and another did unsafe blockstrings so you learn to be patient and punish and see why you shouldn’t do the whole combo when they block.
There’s no reason not to have both.
that exception rather verifies the rule.
I meant that a FG can never be as immersive as an open world game to a casual player. Because in the second, even if you dont know it at all, it gives you a short tutorial and delves you into its world. you dont even need to play, you just wander at the surroundings, gazing at the incredible scenery and listening to the music Or try to mug some hookers. .I couldnt even imagine a few years ago that such a type of gaming existed, yet with the advancing of technology, it now does.
now regarding multiplayer: PCs had that long before consoles, consoles tried to catch up and in a way forced multiplayer in a lot of games, especially in the current console generation, even on portables…
But a lot of players, even in COD or Halo, do not bother about online and probably they do not care to write their opinion online. I hardly play any FPS, yet watched my friend still beat most of the major FPS on PS2. With a gamepad nevertheless, something I have trouble with, since I am a keyboard/mouse fps player, whenever I try. Yet even when he got a PS3, he hated online with a passion and didnt even bother to create a PS3 account.I set an account for him once and gave him to try and play Resistance and he lost immediately, not eager to delve into online in the first place. He prefered split-screen co-op with a friend against CPU bots, like in the first Resistance. Or local lan games on net-cafes when COD on PC was popular in early 2000s and consoles couldnt offer this.
Very unlikely that he’d visit FPS console forums to look for advice and advanced lingo. He was dissapointed that a lot of the newer FPS ditched split-screen or long single player modes and focused on online. I wonder how many in his place were either forced to adapt or stop playing alltogether
Regarding fighters, a lot of players are in the same situation probably. With online, practically all our gaming perceptions change drastically. Just like in arcades, a lot of players dont even bother with competitive play, they just throw a coin and play the CPU, trying the same tactics again and again, till they finish the game.
Online in console FGs is relatively new and probably catch a lot of people by surprise…Eventually newer players will accept online as it is: Just an extra feature of the game to compare your skill against others. It shouldnt be taken as a measure to judge your enjoyment of the game.
Yo!!! I am the mythical casual gamer. I learned street fighter casually over the past year… No street fighter isn’t too hard for a casual dude
BUT
From a perspective of a “casual” there was some shit in street fighter 4 that seemed arbitrary to me:
Some moves can cancel into special some cannot.
My chained jab cannot cancel. But it can if i link it??
Being able to chain jabs and shorts made me think i could do chain combos like in MVC3, but you cannot.
FADC all sorts of moves, but not the sweep?
Cross ups. They look like some sort of glitch. And why can ryus jfmk cross up but not hakans? Hakans looks like it would be the more likely move to cross up.
Some moves juggle, some don’t. There is no way to know except trial and error. Visually there is no indication.
My noob friends would try to kick while i was in a knockdown state. Think how stupid it looks to someone new seeing a kick whiffing through a body. Using common sense (kicking opponent on ground) they are rewarded with eating a wakeup throw or SRK.
In fighting games like street fighter we have many rules, exceptions to rules, and all in a arbitrary game system where your common sense and knowledge of the real world may not apply. So I think its pretty stupid to argue against xes and ithuan who seem to want to make fighting games clearer especially in the context of appealing to casuals.