Are fighting games too hard to play for the average casual player?

Too hard for what?

Too hard to just enjoy the game with friends? No, I don’t believe so. The only problem lies it how skilled your friends are, or really, how willing to improve your friends are. If you are all content to mash buttons, you’ll have a blast. If you are all willing to put in time to improve and take your losses to heart, you’ll have a blast. If your group is a mix of the two… prepare for problems.

Too hard to just go into a tournament and do well against serious players? Oh, absolutely. However, no game worth playing will ever be easy for a casual player to do well against a serious player. That goes for everything from Chess to Call of Duty, Madden to Tetris Attack. Seriously, go into any regional tournament for a game you play casually and see how far you get.

I completely agree. On a ‘just for fun’ basis against friends, arcade games wont really be difficult but against serious players and higher difficulty level CPU opponents it can be quite painful.

I’d have to disagree about that game. This game is so easy that I felt even the classic duck hunt was more difficult. From my experience the requirements to win are:

[LIST=1]
[]Have a good LAN/network connection.
[
]Connect to a low latency server.
[*]Make sure you pull the trigger before your opponent (as per server time)
[/LIST]
I say all this based on my experience online with COD IV,V,VI on PC. I also played CODI and CODII, but not online. Of course, without dedicated servers for the PC version, CODVI online was a fiasco for me. On high latency servers all you can do is pray that the enemy does not spot you before you spot him. I got so bored paying a lot for the same shit multiple times that I stopped playing COD altogether. I would compete in FPS tournaments, but the only problems for me are lack of decent tournaments at the right time in the right place and friends who take gaming seriously (to form a team). I’m just a school kid from a place where video gaming is considered a child’s hobby, you see.

Counter Strike and Battlefield 3 FTW lol. Sorry about going off-topic with this, I just could not help responding to that.

I have nothing but vitriol for CoD, but even for a franchise I loath, I’m not going to disrespect the serious players like that.

If you really think it’s that easy, then go to a COD tournament (and not just some local - something with real money on the line and a lot of out-of-towners) and see how far you make it.

How well you do online, of course, is no indication of how well you will do in a serious tournament - not for fighters, and especially not for shooters as popular as Call of Duty which has a fanbase as large as the WWE.

I say this as a former tourney player of CStrike, TFC, UT99 and Q3A. I played all these games online and consistently excelled for years. I went to my first tournament and got utterly destroyed. It was at that point I realized the online hordes were nothing compared to the folks who truly dedicate themselves to the game.

Oh don’t get me wrong. I’m sure there are players better than me. But I was only referring to the level of difficulty. In that regard, COD is MUCH easier than CS or the others.
In a real tournament, you are still playing in a network- which is essentially a good LAN connection.
If yo had read my post, you would have noticed I mentioned tournaments and why I cant play in them. Not easy to come by good tournaments in India, especially in my state. Besides, I’d need a team- which I do not have.
I have played in offline tournaments and I know exactly what you are talking about. I would never say for CS, TFC/TF2, UT or Quake what I did for COD. COD really is that much easier. If the professionals playing COD like to play COD, good for them. But I have much more respect for people excelling at CStrike than COD.

I have nothing against the COD pros, only against the game itself.

Regarding the overhead thing specifically, there are some cases where it’s not entirely clear if a player got hit because they were guarding low, they were being frame trapped, or if the move was straight up unblockable anyway. The worst offender I know of this is C/H Kohaku’s 236[A], where it looks like a low, but the charging implies unblockable, but it actually becomes an overhead. Yeah, after getting hit by it four or five times, a player could probably figure out that there’s something going on there, but the fact that it’s an overhead precisely could stand to be better communicated.

I think the other part about fighting games that make them kind of unappealing for more casual gamers is the fact that when one player is losing against a considerably more skilled player, there’s a very strong feeling of helplessness. Even if it isn’t a strict slippery slope like chess, getting continually knocked down or punished for every unsafe move thrown out is incredibly demoralizing, especially when there’s so much that a player needs to learn in order to not be put into those situations (asymmetric design). Compared to a FPS where even if a player gets headshot continually, there’s still a feeling of chance of getting that one lucky shot, especially when one ‘life’ is worth so much less than an entire lifebar in a fighting game.

This is kind of like when Magic had a problem with Affinity dominating standard as opposed to Caw-go (or Caw-blade). For those not informed, the Affinity deck was an incredibly oppressive deck that was hard for the other player to play against because it took control of the game so quickly and made it feel like one player couldn’t do anything about it. This feeling was made worse by the fact that the deck was ‘easier’ to play than most. Caw-go on the other hand allows the losing player to still feel like he or she is still playing Magic, even if only to just be crushed under the weight of continual card advantage. Furthermore, the deck tends to require more skill. Both decks were eventually gutted by having their key cards banned in the end, although it took a while for Caw-go/blade’s Jace.

So how does this tie back into casuals in fighting games vs. other genres? The casual player fighting the more knowledgable player in a fighter is like going up against Affinity. There’s less ‘perceived’ interactive skill in continually being hit while on the ground, continually mixed up,continually comboed, or continually punished even if a lot of calculations and skill goes into reading every move and countering it. Additionally, the player getting hit by all these things can’t really do anything about it until he or she just gets better. Compared to a FPS, every time a player gets headshot, there’s always a feeling of skill involved, so a player doesn’t feel as bad being defeated. Also, in most FPSs, every time the player dies, he or she gets right back up in 5 to 10 seconds to try again and to start playing the game again. There’s still a feeling of playing the game, like in Caw-go, even if the player is still going to inevitably lose over the continual score advantage the other player is getting, or card advantage.

Tl;dr: Fighting games are not fun for a casual player when playing against experienced players. FPSs still manage to be somewhat fun in the casual vs. experienced matchup.

I have friends who are actually good at FPS’s, it’s not fun playing them 1V1.

Personally, here’s something I would like to see, and I think it would help everyone out, pro and noob alike - though especially the noobs.

Alright, you know how almost every game has a replay feature these days? Most times, these replay features aren’t recording actual video footage. Usually they are just recording the inputs of both players, and then playing them back.

Well, why not have it where we can replay our footage, and then when we get hit by something, we can jump in to just a few frames before that point and correct our mistake? And then we can just correct that mistake over and over again, until we finally have mentally ingrained within ourselves “Okay, when my opponent does this, I can do that and avoid it/counter it.”

I think this would help everybody and, like I said, I don’t understand why this hasn’t been done already… and if it has been done already, why it hasn’t caught on.

Because most people don’t really want complex in-depth teaching tools, they want to improve by playing.

Nothing stops them to do it that way.
This assumption that you need to expend hours on training mode before starting to play is stupid.
A good amount of players learn by playing the game, and the training mode is more to refine things or try other stuff, but not their primary resource of how to improve at the game

That is something that mike wants to implement on the SG replay feature

Good stuff, hope it pans out and catches on.

Yeah, but they’ll never improve by playing unless they recognize why they are losing.

Hell, they could even have a counter that keeps track of how many times they blocked, punished or were hit confirmed by a certain move. Then at a loading screen they could have a message pop up that says “You’ve been hit by Ryu’s cr.MK 98% of the times it was used against you, blocked it 2% of the time and have never punished it. Perhaps you should work on this!” I’ve seen counters for more obscure and numerous things in SNES games, don’t see why it can’t be done now.

for me it’s a development resources thing. Given limited dev time and budget how much of your money/time do you want to spend on a feature like that, one that could be useful, but that simply very few of your users will use, especially not the people you want to use it the most?

FPS and sports games have this issue as well. A great deal of players avoid the online experience and prefer the single player or to play offline with friends.
problem with fighters is that they have a close world, limited to just one stage, two or four players and a background.
People want a game to be vast with a world to explore or be realistic, like it happens with new sports titles.
but a fighter?
fighters cant offer that. even when some tried to add a story, it didnt help much.
you just pick your favorite character, finish the game on easy to see the ending and thats it. do the same things and finish it a few more times.
offline play really fades if the opponents know they play the game casually. If there is not much to explore, interest fades. Like when I played MK2 mainly to see the endings and fatalities, not to learn the game.

Still fighters are not as demanding and niche as some adventure or strategy games (eg Hearts of Iron). there interest would fade much easier for the non-initiated

fighters have a closed world? I played mvc2 for 10 years almost every day. The world you live in is only as closed as you make it.

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fighters only 3 modes. versus, online, training and thats fucking it. Anything outside of that and now you’re no longer creating a fighting game but now applying single player options and if single player options really mattered that much, games like halo 4, SC2, COD would not even attempt multiplayer online.

competitive games need competitive atmospheres. Its why they’re built so player can compete against each other. If you want single player options, go play an RPG. Let me tell you how much that mk9 story mode really matters when the game is fucking trash.

tobal 2 did what you basically want which is 1p world where the fighting game still manages to be present. Tekken always does this with their little mini game they’ve put into tekken for quite a while now. They take the fighting game aspect of tekken and turn it into an old school beat em up. However, people will use the online versus mode 1,000,000 more times than the single player option modes. While they’re nice extras, they detract from the gaming experience.

For the vast majority of casuals, the reality is that days/weeks/months of training mode are needed before they can even begin to play at any level of competency. It takes a while just to learn how to roll a fireball, and even more time to learn how to do an SRK. Forget doing an SRK on reaction, for the average casual it can take weeks just to learn how to SRK on both directions. UMVC3 has a reputation for being braindead easy, but have you tried teaching it to a casual? It could take more than a week just to get them to do “cLMHS, MMHS Super” consistently, and that’s with dedicated daily practice. I mean, I have friends that have been playing it casually for months and they still drop basic air combos on simple mode controls.

I think a lot of people here have been at the game for so long that they’ve forgotten what it’s like to be a complete newbie. Yesterday I was reading the Xiaoyu forums up on TZ and I read about a more optimized BnB. I got home last night, tried it out and was able to get it down in around four minutes. I could say that I only needed four minutes of practice to get that combo down, but in reality I needed four minutes of practice and over fifteen years of experience playing fighting games in general.

Here’s an exercise: borrow a hitbox (or any controller you’ve never used before), load up a fighting game you’ve never played before or read about, pick a character that looks cool to you and go straight to online matches. Try and see how much fun you can have feeling out how to do your moves, when you don’t even know what those moves are, while being bodied by opponents at the same time. Oh, and try and learn the game’s system at the same time, keeping in mind that most characters will be able to bend or break some of the system rules and you have no way of knowing which ones.

That is about as close an approximation as I can think of on what casuals go through, and even then you would have the benefit of a general working knowledge of how fighting games work. Casuals start off even further behind the curve.

I swear those tutorials in BB, P4A, and SG are for preventing that.

P4A and BB even has challenge mode that teaches you baby BnBs.

That’s not months, that’s like, a week, for all the basics, at most.

Which brings us full circle, tutorials aren’t the right way to do it :stuck_out_tongue:

Okay, so here we are.

This is your argument, correct, before we go into crazy semantics?

I personally don’t think it’s fair for any game to try to teach you shit without some sort of tutorial, especially a game as complex as a fighting game.

LMAO, aren’t you the 1st to cry that FG’s need better tutorials?
Made up your fucking mind

how does someone who doesn’t play games seriously understand what it takes for players to be good?

I’ve taught several players in my surrounding areas\locally to be much much better than they ever were originally so much so that they’re known regionally or known within the state as good players. I would even say I’m pretty good @ teaching newer players to be good and tutorials are a very easy way for people to cover the gap. A lot of “learning” is trying to figure out what the characters are capable of which takes trial and error and trial and error takes massive time. Tutorials gets rid most of the trial and error process and speeds up the players learning. Tutorials are just 1 part of the process to teach someone how to play but they are way more important than you could ever conceive.

You have no comprehension what a new player needs because you yourself don’t even understand how to play the games. If you did know how to “play” I don’t think I’d disagree with you 100% of the time.

you spit “theory” what I do to help new players actually has been proven to work in real life with real world results. I’m arguing facts, you’re arguing “theory”.

coming from a design perspective, there’s an essential problem with tutorials in that people won’t use them.

As much as is possible, things should be self-evident enough so people can see what’s going on on their own.

Of course you can’t always do that, some things are never going to be clear, but each thing that isn’t is another barrier getting in the way of a beginning player.

Optimally you want the player to feel that they’ve figured out something themselves, because it gives them a feeling of accomplishment and encourages them to try to learn more. They feel they’ve obtained a little bit of an edge, whereas in a tutorial they tend to end up feeling that they’re not doing something that’s required. Seems like a small thing, but it does a lot in making people more motivated to play and learn.

I had more to say, but gotta go I’ll type more later when I get home :stuck_out_tongue: