Nope…
lol at what the thread is about to duplicate into
You’re kind of projecting.
OK not kind of, you’re entirely projecting.
Let me try to play your game back at you in order to make the absurdity more clear.
“So you’re saying it would be okay for them to change Ryu so his d.MK actually hit overhead. They can just learn it, right?”
~~
ahem
We’re talking about some really basic concepts of game design here, and it’s something that’s a pretty advanced craft at this point. The concept I"m talking about is something that BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION
all the game designers understand. It’s honestly baffling what you’re arguing. Did you in some manner get some bizarre conception that I’m hating on these games for doing this? Because if you did that’s kind of on you.
bolded for emphasis below.
All the main game designers can be shown to agree with the point I’m making, that it’s good to have your moves clearly communicate their properties, and just about all of them use the concept in their games. That is the entire point I’ve been making through the last several pages of discussion. You’re projecting to the point of contradicting yourself just for the sake of furthering the argument. (notably in saying that the concept is being applied in all kinds of modern games, and then also saying that applying the concept would ruin ‘tricky’ mixup characters like Zafina and Viper, you can’t have both of those)
Well, I disagree. I think you’ll find people who don’t play fighting games may disagree as well. Your idea of what is and isn’t obvious clearly comes from having played fighting games.
No, they’re just not into fighters.
Ah, right then. Problem solved! The answer to the thread subject isn’t that fighting games are too hard to learn for the average casual player; it’s just that they’re not in to fighting games!
Everyone can carry on, now.
The thing is most fighters start easy and players turn the game into something hard and difficult when the players take full advantage of everything.
All we have to do is look at the Vs series of games.
What?
Just because you’re shown that you’re hit with a low or overhead doesn’t take the mixup out, but you said that it SHOULD ALWAYS LOOK LIKE AN OVERHEAD, which is fucked up.
2 Things:
If Ryu’s crouching forward was an overhead, it would take away an aspect of his gameplay, one of the reasons why Ryu’s crouching forward is so good is because it’s a low, if you’re talking about SF4, and if you are, and you gave that as an example, you have no idea how to play SF4.
If Ryu’s crouching forward was an overhead, it’d be broken, not because it looks like a low (which is what you’re trying to say), but because it’s an extremely fast, extremely far overhead that you could combo out of. (nothing wrong with that, just, it’d be weird in this game, and for his playstyle)(It’s also one of the reasons why divekicks don’t have to be blocked high.) (It’s also one of the reasons why Yun’s overhead is of decent speed and Rufus’s overhead looks “deceptive”.
Think about it, a Ryu is walking back and forth, back and forth, back in forth, playing footsies, now do I ever really need to block low, his short is too stubby, and his roundhouse is pretty risky, considering ultras could punish it on block.
You’d also be breaking a pre established SF rule, low kicks are considered “low”.
And I’m not trying to argue that game designers don’t understand this, I’m asking what the fuck you are trying to say.
Like I said, game designers agree with you, these things are here, so what in blue blazes are you arguing about, it’s already inputted into the games.
This whole thread can be summed up with, “Yes, SO FUCKING WHAT?!”
I dunno about y’all but
-Bought TTT2 on Friday. There’s a bunch of stuff to learn, but the Combot stuff kinda helped and experimentation/practice has made me a better player.
-Bought BB:CS today. God DAMN there’s alot of stuff going on! Holy shit! There’s a million fuggin’ things, and they are all happening at once.
I dunno, you’re one of the guys that decided to flip out at the concept.
I’m still scratching my head on that one.
PS: about Ryu, the absurdity of the argument is the whole point. You’re taking what I’m saying and making these insane projections out of them… when you’re not noting that my point is an already established and accepted concept.
fffffffffff
dude, im going to go to bed now, i’ll reply in the morning because god damn that was like, it was…evasive?
look back at the discussion. What I’ve said is that clarity of communication is better than tutorials for people learning, and that some games have a lot of unnecessary bloat that gets in the way of that clarity.
I would have expected people to go after the second part, but the former ended up the focus for some strange reason.
I’d say yeah, because fighting games rarely work well with button mashing. Casual players usually only do that.
IMO, yes. I define an “average, casual gamer” as someone who enjoys playing games in general, as opposed to fighting games in particular. Personally I have had plenty of experience trying to get such people into fighting games, with extremely few lasting results. They play it for a couple of days and quit.
For these people the effort/reward ratio of fighting games is completely out of whack. Not only does it take significantly more time and effort before a player can start having fun playing a fighting game, the time and effort required to “get a foot in the door” is spent not playing the game, but grinding away in practice mode. For a casual gamer, “practice mode” is synonymous with “tutorial”. No one wants to play through a game’s tutorial for more than an hour or so, but fighting games demand hundreds if not thousands of hours in the lab before a player can go from zero FG knowledge to just playing competently (never mind actually getting good).
It’s easy to denigrate these players as “lazy” or “weak” but the truth is fighting games are just a terrible fit for them. They get just as much if not more fun from other games, for less effort. Why would Johnny Casual pick up KoF 13 and practice it for weeks before maybe having a little bit of fun if he can just buy Modern Warfare or something and be enjoying himself five minutes after popping in the disc? The situation gets even worse when a person grows up and starts working a job. If you’ve only got two or three hours to spare for playing games, you’re not going to want to devote it all to getting a few links down into muscle memory.
A lot of people don’t think fighting games are “too hard to play”, and in a way they’re right. However, the important point is that fighting games are “too hard to play compared to alternatives”. Casuals will pick a different genre offering similar fun for less effort. That’s just simple logic. For better or worse, fighting games will remain a niche genre unless they change to be a lot more pick-up and play friendly.
Ukyo, that’s at least partially the culture rather than the games themselves.
You can enjoy the hell out of SF4 or KOF with almost no practice time at all. There are certainly games where that’s a problem but it’s not universal. The issue on that part is more that they think they’re *required to do things that they can enjoy the game (up to a certain level) perfectly well without.
People play online now. The old days of playing games with your friends in your own little bubble of noob-ness are gone. Now you go in ranked and immediately get bodied. Those who don’t quit outright from frustration at the constant losses will probably quit when they realize how much time and effort they need to expend in training mode before they can even begin to compete. Sure, they could put in the hours and reap the rewards a couple of days/weeks/months later, but they could also just pick up a nice FPS and start having fun that much sooner.
My main problem in SSFIV is the enormous cast and variety of attacks. I understand it helps with the longevity of the game, but for a beginner going online, who is faced with a different character every 3 minutes, it can be frustrating to go “ok… so if I block the shoryuken of this one guy that goes this high I should wait 282 millseconds to wait for the block stun to wear off, and then I can input this type of punish, but if I block the shoryuken of this other guy that goes a bit lower, I should wait only 217 milliseconds for the block stun to wear off, and then I have to input a weaker punish because the other punish takes too long…”
It’s alright when you only play Ryu. When you face 39 different characters each with at least 10 relevant special moves each with different block stun/recovery/invincibility/etc, the amount of stuff that you need to learn before going “yeah… I can reliably punish it when the other guy does something blatantly unsafe, and I won’t attempt a punish when the other guy can’t be punished” is enormous. And imho, being able to punish when the other guy is spamming unsafe moves is a requirement for the game to be any fun.
IMO, one of the problems with ranked is that it doesn’t segregate people enough. IMO, fighting games should take a thing or two from StarCraft II’s “league” system where people online are separated by skill. Actually, on this note, vanilla SFIV Championship mode almost got it right since you were separated by grades.
I like this but the problem of smaller playerbase that shrinks and how important a good connection to play against is makes me see why going into rank and seeing each players ranks and connection so you can pick your fight might be the best idea even if there’s vultures.