Good to know. I stopped paying attention to Morrigan once I saw that Wesker built meter faster than her Harmonizer assist could.
If you want a character who can answer every situation then you need to play Magneto or something. Ask Hsien-Ko or Haggar players how they feel about you having to select from multiple failing options. Morrigan has one of the fastest, longest triangle jumps in the game (hit or whiff), 4 frame basic attacks in every position, a 1 frame unbreakable grab that can be option selected for safety (and is better now in more than one way!), a jump-cancelable normal that allows her to repressure on block, and some minor tweaks to existing stuff that help her with speed and canceling. I don’t know how you specifically played her in vanilla but she is far from worse, or even approaching unplayable. You are missing the forest for the trees because you like one character and you dislike one change. Well, I really like her too, and I’m saying I *didn’t *like her in vanilla. For beam/keepaway characters you can’t deal with (is Dorm still going to be a problem? Sure, a bigger one, what are you gonna do, did you want to win every matchup? Well, again, I guess you better pick Magneto), presumably you have a team with two other characters on it? That’s part of what makes MvC an interesting series? You’re not playing ratio 4 Morrigan or whatever.
Obviously you have access to info I don’t. With everything I’m privy to at the moment, there is simply no reason whatsoever to include her on your team over a considerable amount of other characters. There really wasn’t in vanilla either, but she didn’t have any glaring weaknesses that punished you for using the character.
Unless she got changes like considerably longer hard knockdown time/ground bounce on Vector Drain/her air throw, much faster walk speed, an Astral Vision she can actually activate mid combo or not eat a full screen beam for activating, she’s simply become vanilla Hsien-ko bad. Even the, aside from the walk speed, she couldn’t put much of that to use. Her play in vanilla will usually leave her in the anchor position, meaning one on one/many match ups were actually extremely important to her. This is as much coming from her not getting much value at all from having assists as her being a meter whore, or being on a team entirely for Dark Harmonizer. Well, they could have opted to flat out give her her dash from Vampire Savior in it’s entirety, so she could just not hold it and not have to deal with the vulnerability as well, but nothing I’ve seen or played with in Ultimate suggests that they did, merely that they roughly cut the time to act in half.
Uh, don’t believe everything you read… Like I said, I pretend she doesn’t have a ground dash. >_>
She may have some of what you mentioned, though! :eek:
The issue of whether the airdash thing is a dealbreaker for Morrigan (I don’t think it is, your mileage may vary, and you’ll get to see soon enough) is very separate from whether it’s a dealbreaker for the game which is what this thread is about. If I’m arguing it’s about the entitled attitude, not with you specifically. FWIW we generally think Ultimate Morrigan is an improvement. Is she top tier? No. Her design was never going to be. Her lack of a real dash is just a sad thing the Morrigan player has to accept. As Buk put it to me once, “the job of Morrigan in any given game is to disappoint the Morrigan player.” ;]
Why does that line have to hold so true?
And no, I don’t think it’s a deal breaker for the game either. I just don’t think it was something that needed to be applied as a universal system change. I also don’t think being able to block out of air dashes was ever really bad for the game to start with, but it’s certainly something that could have been applied on a case by case basis as a knob to tune with if you will.
As to the time to act out of her forward dash, that was a visual approximation made by several people out of one of the post SDCC/Evo builds. She was able to attack at a much lower height, than in vanilla, but I suppose that’s a change that could easily have been backed out, or been a result of the dash just staying lower to the ground for longer.
She still will do better one on one than Hsien Ko or Haggar. LOL.
I think Morrigan’s assist will create some S tier worthy teams in Ultimate so we’ll see. Similar to regular Phoenix…wont be awesome for people that like to play Morrigan on point but that’s how things have been since MVC2 I guess. With XF3 and astral vision she’ll still be a better anchor than CapCom any way.
Considering there’s Bloom as a (slower) alternative, you’d really need to be whoring that meter out.
DJ, You of all people should remember that you could slap Tron or Doom behind Morrigan in MvC2 and be ready for some horrifying home cookin’. (Ah, the solution to any crap character in MvC2… put Doom/Tron behind them.)
Also, despite however good some hyper beams are, it’s instructive to remember that they are all, every one of them, annihilated by AHVB, and that was in a game where you couldn’t block from airdashes, and there were still totally reasonable vectors for garbage characters to approach Cable. And if sometimes all you have is super jump forward and block and try not to eat an air throw (or wavedash and block, Morrigan excepted), then that’s all you have, but that’s not the same as nothing.
Phoenix is still Phoenix, if she goes dark she’s still basically unbeatable. People should wait and see, the sky isn’t falling. Fun game, a lot silly, but that’s part of the point. There are some decisions that make each of us go, “…uhhhhh,” but what are you gonna do.
I normally stay out of FGD(for obvious reasons) but the Marvel Bible says Morrigan’s flight starts up in 15 frames which is the same as Magneto’s. I don’t see the big deal…just flight cancel shit or cover your ass with a Soul Fist or Sentinel assist.
It might be shorter than that now! :o Fun character!
A good question both for designers and fans is: does it make a game worse to have a larger selection of inferior options? Or, put another way, would MvC2 have been better if you could only select 20 characters instead of 56? And in any case no matter how you look at it, the situation in MvC3 is drastically improved from its predecessors. We can all agree Captain America and Ryu are very underwhelming and they still show up in tournaments.
The vast, vast majority of people who play these games never get to the point where tiers even matter. We are so insulated in the depth of our hobby that we miss the point of why the games are made in the first place, which is that they are entertainment products released to make money so that the company can make more games and make more money. Capcom isn’t a non-profit and we are, let’s remember, a niche audience inside a niche audience. To be honest I am very lucky that BradyGames even allows us to spend entirely too much effort and time trying to dissect these games like we do. They could just as easily print a movelist and sell maybe 10~20% less, I don’t know. Having seen the hell that is working in the game industry, I consider any concessions from developers to us crazy hardcore gamers to be a bonus. We are not the 99%, haaaaa
I maintain that the core problem under this entire issue is the recent developer trend of making characters’ basic walk speed complete ass just to make dashes more necessary/shinier compared to simply walking. And then some games add larger stages onto that issue.
My issue with Morrigan’s flight mode was never the start up, it’s that single damn frame of recovery. I get hit with shit (Chaotic Flames) on Morrigan that I don’t with Storm because my reactions are barely allowing me to get the cancel off and block in time. 8 out of 10 times i can cancel flight and block Chaotic Flames in time with Storm. That drops to more like 3 out of 10 times with Morrigan.
That insane quick recovery on Morrigan’s assist is really important as it mitigates the chances of Morrigan getting hit while you’re zoning. Ammy’s assist could work also if you protect her well enough but Morrigan’s near instant recovery she basically protects herself.
I haven’t played with Bloom much at all, but I thought Ammy was in and out of the screen in about the same time as Morrigan, and just had a longer assist cooldown on it.
Test it out in training mode there’s a BIG difference. Like Doom’s plasma beam is 22 frame start up before its active and nearly hits the opponent from a distance. If I shoot plasma beam against Morrigan assist, once she puts her hand out as a gesture and the character starts turning purple, she can’t be hit anymore. With Ammy the character will get the meter and have cherry blossoms form around them and she’ll make a gesture, but the beam will still hit her long after the gesture. She takes a longer time to actually be off screen and is vulnerable during the gesture longer. Basically you’ll see Ammy do a long howl that lasts about 2 or 3 seconds and you can hit her anytime during that howl gesture. Morrigan is vulnerable to hit for what is probably less than one real second.
By the time you see Morrigan enter the screen it’s usually too late.
I’m pretty sure Morrigan’s assist is probably the fastest recovering assist in the game. You have to literally be dry humping Morrigan or shooting a beam super to hit her.
Clakey D used to run Morrigan anchor at the beginning of Vanilla to some moderate success but was using 2 characters in front that don’t really optimize the assist (Tron and X-23). With the nerfs to old characters and all the “monsters with meter” characters being introduced in Ultimate, I see the assist really shining.
You’re only vulnerable to lows during the jump start-up. Almost every character can cancel a ground dash to up-back and block a hyper on reaction with no problems.
Damn capcom, the hell are you doing?
I never knew this. Good to know.
So you should understand the whining about Morrigan now: she has no ground dash or wave dash. She basically can’t block and approach at the same time now, something that might be unique to her.
If it gets really bad for Morrigan I guess people can message Capcom about the issue so that at least she can get a block during her air dash. If they’re really listening and it’s something that even people who don’t play Morrigan would want…couldn’t hurt.
I’m not sure if it was something Capcom put together and was like “well Morrigan specifically has this and that technology that said Morrigan players aren’t using that makes her air dash really strong, so no block during air dash is fine”.
I’m not going to whine about it. I’m just going to switch characters.