AE 2013 Gouken 'Request List

  • Two hit EX fireballs “Juri” Style with LP+MP / MP+HP / LP+HP / LP+MP+HP
  • cr.hp or cr.mk forces stand and combo into Tatsu on all chars
  • less recovery on DF grap (safe set ups afterwards)
  • 4 frame recovery on DF parry
  • EX Tatsu hit low
  • Overlapping frames for low/mid/high kongo
  • All light attacks should be 4 framer
  • far.mp should be +6 on hit

This is all Gouken needs and would make him an absolutely monster !!!

This would be enough:

  • Two hit EX fireballs “Juri” Style with LP+MP / MP+HP / LP+HP / LP+MP+HP
  • cr.hp or cr.mk forces stand and combo into Tatsu on all chars
  • less recovery on DF grap (safe set ups afterwards)
  • Overlapping frames for low/mid/high kongo

Air parry has 4 frames of recovery currently
Jabs should be 3 frames. Why 4? They don’t lead anywhere anyway, just would be nice to jab out of situations/make certain things safer or defendable on block
I’ve never had cr.mk xx hk. tatsu whiff unless if the character was out of range. Has anyone else? Cr.hp xx hk tatsu whiffs on some so I don’t use it.
Air grab should return to zero frames of recovery on whiff and have faster recovery on a successful grab
I’ve come to the point where I almost exclusively use ex kongo because of the 3 zone nonsense. Going from 2 to 3 zones was a stupid, stupid “fix”.

Frame data actually says it’s six, but I think he means about the stall in the air the move has, keeping landing at 6f but have it descend like Akumas DF Palm would be a formidable buff.

Well once they are 3f they do suddenly have the ability to lead to things. More needs to change for such a change to happen.

tatsu whiffs due to reel animations, mediums and heavies cause different reel animations, as well as how high and low the hitbox connects with the hurtbox. Mediums to HK Tatsu are already far more reliable, and because of c.MKs high hitbox it probably helps(This is just me theoring it, I usually use f.MP cancels to HK if I use it, but that definitely doesn’t work on everyone well)

I don’t think it was ever 0, it was probably 4 like most Air Normals(the 4 landing frames allow you to tech throws, but are vulnerable to tripguard)
I doubt they’ll return this do to trying to have some deal of conformity in demonflips shared moves, but I wouldn’t mind either df parry or df throw to go to 4 landing frames.

Not so much a fix as a nerf. They nerfed the 2 things that are most frustrating at low level play(counter, backthrow) and gave us all a lot of buffs in return over AE and 2012. I wouldn’t mind seeing this return to 2, or have more properly overlapping hitboxesor my once mentioned option of one counter that works on all airborne moves no matter the height and then a low and a high parry vanilla hitbox style and both lose to any airborne move. Still has them nerfed as all the hop overheads can sneak in between(and the handful of ground normals that are airborne), but makes them more reliable.

I’d like to see:
Faster+higher priority normals.
Less recovery on DF. It makes no sense that those moves are more of a liability than tools.
Tatsu’s not dropping.

Stuff that’ll NEVER happen:
Get rid of Forbidden Shoryu. Turn Super into a timer based super in which Gouken awakens in “Mu (boss) form”. Special move properties change like this:
Faster, instant 2 hit hado.
Senkgoshoha receives armor. No ability to juggle.
Tatsu gets EX startup.
Kongo gets EX properties

Ultra Shoryu gets Forbidden properties.

I don’t think these would break him…too much haha!

Lol that would make Gouken a monster zoner. In the corner would be rape. I don’t think the opponent would ever be out of blockstun, and if they get hit, FB will combo infinitely into itself for guaranteed death off of a single read. It would just be plain smarter to eat throws and chip. So guaranteed a shit ton of chip in corner.

You know that timed super is actually a fun idea, but without all the other suggested changes, just have him be Shin Gouken from boss mode period(maybe minus denjin buff). Have the super have no invincibility and some recovery and if we get hit out Gouken doesn’t go into mu form.

It would complement Goukens ability of Knocking people towards the corner without making it viable for a reversal(also very Gouken huh :3 ) but if say Gouken has full super while your in the corner and he cancels a blocked normal into it, well you are gonna eat hella chip(or if you got hit, well then, oh boy, good thing scaling exists in the game.) It’ll have an effect like Alpha 3 vism.

It’ll never happen, but it is interesting :slight_smile:

Faster walk speed

How much faster are you thinking? Also forward and backwards?

His forward walk needs to be a bit faster… Better footsie

Personally I think it’d be a better improvement of our footsies if our walk back movement was augmented. Forward movement we are in the E category(Genmantis, Ryu, Fei, Rose, Rufus and Guy) and it’s a pretty good one. We lose out horribly in backwards movement(our backdash is bad too) as we are class G there( too long a list, but some notables: Fei, Ryu, Rufus, T Hawk, Gief)

Where footsies are concerned the walk back is very important. We have a solid forward walk and a phenomonal forward dash.

It would also assist us in AA normal positioning, especially our close HK.

that said, nothing wrong with extra forward movement, I just think we could use more backwards movement first(and being rid of the kongo bug so we can shimmy back and forth and still use punches)

I agree faster back walk will make up for his back dash… I was thinking boss Gouken when I was saying faster walk

Air hurricane need better recovery…

Shin Gouken is an example of how to take things way too far, but definitely an inspiration for directions to push things for improvement.

I won’t deny I’d love air hurricane improvement. Definitely would love it having better recovery(like other tatsus), no lower body hurtbox(like other tatsus). We might have to sacrifice it counting as an overhead if we get those things though, but it’d be worth it. Rather not though, I love them inescapable chip setups <3

How about changing palm and tatsu reach by holding button down longer? Just a quick blurb

i have a question about ae 2013.
are all the characters getting an update? also when is this coming out?

It is one of speculation and hinting from capcom. They have said so far if there is one, it is most going to be a system update and smoothing out of glitches and introducing new system options, they didn’t want to touch the characters. It’s why I expect the only change Gouken might see is a change to his(and Feis) kongo input shortcut error.

Other than that, Ono is still Ono and I’m just hoping(and really really expecting) him to not be able to help himself(iirc he tweeted something about cryptic about characters as well) and so we are discussing what we’d like to see. I think theres a general change request listing all the characters that some members are petioning to Ono in the general ssf4 section.

As for when, there is no ETA, capcom is probably still figuring out how far they should take it. Imma hoping Ono might go for a Boss Version vs mode, for crazy off the wall matches with all the boss characters, I tweeted it to him :3

Come on Ono, pay some attention to the old man :smiley:

something cryptic? like a cryptic systems update? or something new to the game itself? lol thanks for the info

Yes, I was mistaken. I was recalling the last line that says “~4frames til landing” or something, which is referring to the active frames of the armor.

What devastating, game breaking thing could a 3 frame Gouken jab lead to? They have a huge 3 frame advantage…maybe a corner combo off a fireball just like our cl.st.mk which leads to our infinitely blockable, reversable, focusable fireball loop. Nevermind the fame data then, give me a target combo that starts with a special 3 frame target combo jab and ends with a sweep/ hard knockdown.

I know why tatsu whiffs which is why I use cr.mk…cr. mk does 70 damage, cr.hp does 80…not a huge trade off in my eyes for something that I don’t need to remember which character it will work on.

It was awesome in Vanilla. You miss the grab but you aren’t the automatically dead and actually still on the offensive.

Yes, it was a nerf and a bs one. That’s why i put “fix” in quotes. They “fixed” kongo, probably for some whiny noobs. Was it overpowered, ever? I don’t think so at all. It works best against people who don’t change their pattern, who think slapping buttons is being good at a fighting game.

Naw his usual playful cryptic message that it wouldnt be limited to just systems and online improvement. The system update will happen, character update, not so certain.

So I was watching Capcoms SFxT update videos and came across an interesting one. Heihachi has a ground counter that covers beats all Hi and Lows but loses to Aerial attacks. Seeing as that is obviously a bit too good, they changed it(much like asuka who had the same), but for him he now has a low one, a high one and the 3rd one beats both, but has a slower startup. I find this an interesting possibility to consider for Gouken and have been really liking how SFxT handles antiair moves, especially in 2013, with it having a special hurtbox that is immune to aerial attacks. Here’s hoping they keep some of the good idea’s they’ve had in SFxT(I know this change is too big, but how much better would Gouken be if we had Alpha counters in here?) in mind when they go for the 2013 update, especially with Onos recent utterly unsubtle hint, I knew that sly bastard had it in him to not leave it at a system update(still no confirmation, but Ono is being even more Ono than usual :3 )

Oh and should they add karin, sorry, but I’ll be very preoccupied mastering her for the following months of her release, she was one of the very reasosns I even tried out Gouken back in Vanilla :3 I miss the Alpha series :frowning:

Rather than seeing a significant change to Gouken’s combos or move properties, I’d prefer to see him being strengthened in what has always been his paradigm.

On the one hand it would be nice for Gouken to gain things other characters have, such as the ability to link his light attacks (and thus get special moves out of chains), or to be able to combo cr.mp to fireball, but I’d really rather he not just emulate other characters.

Regarding what has been said in this thread already: I of course fully support fixing issues such as tatsu dropping characters and any other glitches which Gouken has to deal with. But I am actually -not- in support of changing his specials in most of the ways that have been described. I can understand the desire to make tatsu more “usable,” make lp palm start up faster and be safer, have faster charging fireballs, or to make palm avoid fireballs more easily. I do not, however, agree that this is the best course of action to take with Gouken; I think there’s a better alternative which would be in line with and strengthen the basic premise of his character.

I think the primary change to Gouken should be very simple: increase his damage across the board.

Gouken has always been a high damage, high risk/high reward character. He has very little in the way of “training wheels” when it comes to landing his damage.

However, I don’t think he is rewarded quite enough for his efforts. He has some very strong BnB combos, but they are difficult to land. Now there are two possible approaches to improving the situation: either make it easier to land Gouken’s damage, or to increase the damage reward when he -does- land it. I’m personally in favor of the latter rather than the former, simply because it would strengthen Gouken’s character as a heavy damage dealer, rather than make him more similar to other characters.

As such, I would propose the following changes: The goal here is actually not to significantly increase his BnB combo damage, but to increase his damage in other areas.

Jabs: Far jab damage increased from 30 to 40. Crouching jab damage increased from 20 to 30.

Mediums: All medium attacks (standing, crouching, far, near, jumping, kicks or punches) except for close MP set to 80 damage unless they already exceed that number. Far standing MK increased to 85 damage.

Fierces: Far standing HK increased from 110 to 130.

Fireball damage increased to 65 and 130 on full charge.

Palm damages increased to 120, 140, 160 for L, M, and H respectively (ex remains 150 due to follow up potential).

Kongoshin damage increased to 180.

These changes would increase Gouken’s general damage, while leaving his large BnB combos basically untouched. I think this is the way to go for improving the character, rather than changing his other technical specs.