Put Gouken on counter hit and look at the shit he’s able to do.
cr. mp > hado works
cr. mp > mp palm works
far st. mp > cr. roundhouse works
and he’s too far to do cr. mp > cr. fp > EX Palm…
There’s no reason he shouldn’t be able to do this…
The ability to link a scoop tatsu from inside Kongo , or just make lk.tatsu scoop for juggle at the right distance.
And to fix and solidify the perceived Kongo glitches we should hold button down to link to another Kongo and a third but only earn a counter when timed right before impact is made we would then be able to Kongo fadc bdash Kongo in tighter situations.
Reduce the transitional animation frames when Gouken cancels to hyakkishu from gflip meaning more uses from top of his gflip arc,and or the ability to cancel to air parry pre zenith currently we cannot air parry until after max height.
The ability to fake go hadou would be dope ESP since close fbs bait jump ins often.
Possibly fadc after first hit on expalm and or extatsu as wesometimes need a diff shaped hitbox for certain things
EX GFlip parry would be too strong if we could cancel it any earlier, being able to dive kick earlier isn’t a bad idea at all though.
Being able to activate all options earlier out of normal G Flip would be good though… Akuma is able to do things a little differently b/c of the angle he takes when he does dive kick. There are some things I like better about his arc, and then there are some things I like better about ours.
I would like to have some normals that stand the opponent up. All versions of MP and cr.lk come to mind so we could bust tatsu out some more.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe st. cl. mp or cr. fp forcing stand.
I like our faith in 2013!
My wishlist:
- LP Palm invincibility startup frames
- MP Palm -2 on block.
- Cr.mp combos with Mp Palm (if it’s not possible to increase it’s hitstun, then make mp palm startup faster godammit)
- EX Tatsu autocorrect, like Dee Jay’s up kicks.
- Maybe just one version of tatsu should hit crouchers (probably lk).
- Ultra 1 startup to 7 frames and hitbox same as Ryu’s Ultra 2.
- Recovery frames on lk and mk tatsu severely reduced. We shouldn’t have to eat a level3 FA after that. (Should be the same recovery as a HP DP).
- Recovery frames on AIR tatsu severely reduced. (Should be the same recovery as a Ryu’s and Ken’s).
- Close st.mk to be a command normal OR make it’s activation range wider so it’s possible to use outside of point blank (would be a nice hitconfirm from a jab).
- EX flip 2 hit armor or possible to cancel to air tatsu.
- EX palm 1 hit armor or projectile invulnerable through all move.
- HP palm projectile invulnerability on more frames.
- Fix kongo input glitch.
- Kongo should be a freaking parry (like Heihachi’s in SFxT). It shouldn’t armor break. At least not the EX one! Let’s get things even with the Adon matchup.
- Being able to divekick from down forward + mk.
- Reduce hurtbox on far st.mk (it trades almost everytime).
- Really, why can’t the demonflip be an overhead? Let everybody down back block and ruin the mind games. It pisses me off so much to see that other characters have good special moves that are overheads and we lose ours!
- Little wider backdash.
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LP Palm invincibility startup frames
(maybe the first 1 or 2 frames, but in turn it would have to be made unsafe if it’s blocked or given a longer whiff recovery… other than that, it would be super broken) -
EX flip 2 hit armor or possible to cancel to air tatsu.
(cancel to tatsu would be cool, absorbing 2 hits would be broken as hell and Gouken could jump in for free for the most part, i’d definitely hate it for the mirror) -
EX palm 1 hit armor or projectile invulnerable through all move
(Armor would be broken, as we’d AA everything into crazy damage, I do agree it should go through all projectiles.) -
HP palm projectile invulnerability on more frames.
(We had it good in super, but we lost the original HP palm… that shit was boss and it avoided a lot of attacks up close… but everybody cried an got it taken away. My original thought when they changed lp palm, was they would just make it faster and safe on block… I was hoping to see it operate like Soul Spiral and we would have retained all of our versions of palm Sure sucks to not blow through fireballs full screen on reaction) -
Really, why can’t the demonflip be an overhead? Let everybody down back block and ruin the mind games. It pisses me off so much to see that other characters have good special moves that are overheads and we lose ours!
(GF overhead was severely broken against charage characters, it forced them all to abandon their down/back charge move. In fact, I don’t even recall having any issues against charge characters in vanilla exept Bison (the rest were free as hell to pressure once you knocked them down, plus I think it just made it too damn easy b/c if someone forgets to block low you get to blow them up… All dive kicks should be able to be blocked low except the command ones (not including Rufus, Yun, and Yang they have almost 0 height restriction so they should be blocked low or high)… D+mk should just have more hit/block stun to compensate.),
Other than that I think your list is pretty solid.
Hmmm it’s a very eager list and iam covered some points, I’ll chime in on some thoughts I have on others
We really shouldn’t get that without spacing. Currently our palm can go as low as -3 when spaced well and I don’t see -2 as a thing for base value. For a tip hit I could though. I mentioned it should either be safer or less so and faster or maybe more invincible. It’s all very in the middle right now. Heck even keeping all palms the same but making them all fully projectile invincible might be interesting.
It actually does this. Just only at point blank spacing. At least I recall it doing so and frames agree, sadly not able to test before writing this.
This sounds more like you want it to have a better hitbox, nothing special about Deejays autocorrect, ours autocorrects too, just the nature of the hitbox makes it work out very differently. Where hitboxes are concerned, apart from maybe(id love it, but even 3 bar safety might be too much) adding a low hit the hit box is great at what else it does.
It should cost meter to get that trait. It would also be a lot more useful on ex than on lk.
I would make sweet sweet love to this change if it ever happened and get it flowers and a box of chocolates as an apology for being unfaithful to it with that stunningly attractive ultra 2.
I really don’t think this is needed. Getting punished is getting punished. Except if the punisher is a denjin/u1 Evil Ryu type guy. We really should eat a lvl 3 for it and ask for a side order of max damage fries combo.
There’s a lonely island song Jizz in my pants. Prettty much that yeah.
Command normal yay(and close HK too please :3) Jabs would mayhap have to go to +2 to avoid it becoming too good.
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It really shouldn’t. If Gouken were in SFxT then it would work that way and it would be godlike, but in SF4 all counter moves lose to armour breakers(one caveat, ultra counters only lose to true armour breakers, reversal armour break is ignored). Goukens counters are unique in that all the normal versions are 1f and are already really good.(which is why Juris in SFxT are insane, they are all 1f(instead of only her EX like in sf4) and no armour breakers to beat them.)
Not really high priority. Down+MK works just fine.
You are correct about this, it just sucks b/c you really don’t want to do that at point blank even if you know it’s doing to hit.
The fact that none of our low normals combo’s into each other really blows my balls (and not in a good way). A lot of people still want over head so we can have a high low mix up with GF Slide or Dive Kick. They have to fix those normals man… low something needs to be able to combo into low something… lol.
A long time ago player once told me, he’s not afraid of Gouken hitting him low, b/c it either means he get’s to reversal me somehow or he’ll be able to block or fadc through if it’s not counter hit. You hate to use cr. roundhouse so much, but it’s fast and it gives you hard knockdown if it lands… downside is people can just Focus through it and blow you up for trying to pick a safe option.
I have good success with far cr. mp > hado as far as keeping them out but you can’t really do much with it per the above.
Poor Gouken… but he’s still my dude!!
All shotos and larger hitbox characters are vulnerable to tatsus when crouch non blocking…
I think what we all hate is the crouch lights that bait us into tatsu whiffs when in close range…
Maybe what we need is a definitive CH tatsu that scoops into juggle state… But then shouldn’t we be using low Kongo instead of looking for tatsu to save our asses vs such pressure? At least a couple times in a ft5 do I whiff tatsu praying to interupt that dash cr lp crlk from shotos fei etc… I do dislike it but I could be more patient
I’ve been on the edge of taking a break from the game, just having been playing that much partly because I’m tired of guessing, blocking, and fighting lag. 3 zone kongo just adds to the frustration…when I kongo someone’s footsie I don’t feel successful or skilled so much as lucky, and that’s a flaw in the character. I’ve posted this before but if Capcom cannot make Gouken safer, he will always be a novelty. Souchan, I hear you, I do and I know you respect the character but you make so many excuses why Gouken can’t be better or get a new advantage…and I don’t get it. When I’m under pressure from a really good player using an up close character like Fei or Dudley, or great mix up players using Abel or Akuma, it’s clear Gouken is incomplete. There are probably about 12 other characters I could have inserted into those examples as well. A better backdash, to me, is a no-brainer. Normal Tatsu hitting low and locking is a no-brainer. Being able to at the very least match jabs with Ryu is a no-brainer. You can watch any number of other characters lp/lk combo into knockdown, some from up to a whole training block away…just jab confirming all day. I would just like to be able to jab myself out of danger but up against 75% of the cast I shouldn’t even try because our jab suckssss… I mean, it would be great to get a normal that forces stand (cr.lk/cr.mk >hk tatsu has never whiffed for me though) but if Gouken doesn’t gain something to keep him comfortable up close or help him stay out of that range, what’s the point? Nothing will realistically change in his bad match ups. In other words, Gouken’s weaknesses must be addressed.
You really don’t see why Gouken getting level 3 focused after a whiffed or dropped tatsu is asstastic? RyuKenDanCamAkumOniGat (plus others lol) don’t have to worry about that extreme of a punish AND they get invincibility and better hitboxes on their move.
Personally I do feel they need to either revert Kongo back to 2 zones or do 3 zone right. By right I mean low should counter everything with a hit box below the waist, high should counter everything with a hitbox that goes above the waist and both should lose to all airborne attacks(like certain overheads or normals/specials that go off the ground etc) and HP Kongo should crush anything that is remotely considered airborne no matter where the hitbox is.
I am totally cool with better advantages, new ones I am indeed hesitant over, especially when they are in the category of replacing a weakness. There are certain matchups that Gouken is nightmarish in, it’s just a pity those are rarely played as compared to the matchups we are poor at. However I don’t feel good making those incredibly much worse than they are(won’t somebody please think of the poor Hondas?), which is why I prefer boosting the stuff that works well(they suffered from them already, for them it doesn’t matter) and just making those traits of the big G work better against a larger portion of the cast. It’s not one dude we need to think of when changing Gouken, it’s 39(dudes and dudettes). Of course if those bad matchups get buffed, eff em, the G needs all the love he can get^^
and several of them don’t have the zoning, ability to approach, significant damage, 1f counter, safe sweep etc that Gouken does have. Few characters have the variety of tools that Gouken has, which is one reason I rather have them be more solid than giving him even more.
Better bachdash: Ofcourse it would be better, but it is still a backdash, a generally unwise option, even more so for us due to the proliferation of possible OS’s against it. It getting better gives very little advantages, but makes it much better in the matchups that have trouble dealing with Gouken. I really see this as a danagerous change with a bad effect on the meta without buffing Gouken the way he needs. Same for the Tatsus, they are not DPs, they never have been. I can see adding in lock to make sure they do their AA job much better, but other than that. One of the developers intentions were to give Gouken a horizontal DP, namely our palms. I’d much rather see them become more DP like(faster, unsafer, more invincible, at least more projectiles invincibility) than see that done to Tatsus, who true to form like all ground Tatsu’s whiffs on crouchers. As for jabs, this is one of our great sacrifices for the damage we are allowed to deal. We still can link a super after them these days though. We don’t need to mash jabs to beat Ryu, we have a counter(risky as it is) for that. We actually are one of the only people with a 1f move. It really is a strong advantage to have and it costs us a lot which is why it hurt a lot when they 3zoned it.
his close MP is already a great tool for being comfortable up close, also his close fierce can be beastly. I’m only concerned up close vs command grab characters, but thats my main personal weakness. Some characters just need to block sometimes(like the devs speaking about vega in sfxt) and Gouken is very much one of them. It’s a price to pay as one of the only characters that doesn’t have to worry about unblockables, all we have is guesses.
They whiff a DP on us they are gonna feel the pain. ANd no I really don’t see why, the amount of times it happens in a match is virtually nihil, if I whiffed a Tatsu, I damn well should eat a punish. It is a very unwise move in a lot of situations and should really not be confused with a DP.
Cl.mp is great…when you have the initiative… and if you hit low enough with your jump in…on defense you are going to get blown up because it’s too slow…
Tatsu is just a bad joke…a could-have-been move that I have be afraid to use…it’s dumb
Let’s just agree to disagree.
Yeah, I almost only use EX Tatsu for jump in punishes and the other tatsu’s I’ll use in combos… mostly lk and hk tatsu. I don’t ever use mk tatsu… it’s worthless. They all need to lock on at the very least for a buff.
IIRC Guy’s Hurricane Kicks, and I know for a fact ONI’s MK ground pound gives him 1 frame of invincibility then you are airborne so you can’t throw him out of it. Worst case scenario in most cases you take the reset… maybe something along those lines.
The risk vs. reward with tatsu just doesn’t add up, but I can see what they were TRYING to do from a balance stand point, but it just doesn’t work out well b/c it drops people.
Maybe they thought Gouken would be too OP with Angled Hado (that you can juggle), Kongo, Far St. Fp, Cr. FP, cr. mk, cl. st, mk and if you ADD Anti Air tatsu as a AA that acts like a DP capability it could be hella scary.
I’m ok with the slow start up, but they need to make them lock and all throw invincible or something, as Gouken needs an adjustment to better handle throws. You can throw him out of everything except EX Tatsu and U1… that’s bull shit.
but tatsus are good AA(not from wakeup), I used mk tatsus a lot way back when, true they are less useful now. Back when though, j.mp into mk tatsu was the best damage you could find after backthrow and no meter, except o the 5 characters you could do HK Tatsu. Also a lot of combo situations where Hk whiffed MK would. The one use it still retains is being the best AA to get a trade Ultra off of.
I till love using the tatsus, but it could all do with a reevaluation from capcom. Now if only they fix gouken, add gouken and/or karin to xtekken and release thattease of a followup to alpha inlcuding karin and say a 2d sprite gouken, Id be the happiest little thing in the world.
Certain matchups, like what? Gouken is commonly viewed as bottom 5, and the majority of his matchups are mostly lower than 5-5 with the few exceptions where he has the advantage. You keep talking about Honda. Honda is considered top 10. Not exactly tournament viable, but that’s a really really bad appeal to overall game balance.
Except all of their tools really compliment each other to complete an archetype playstyle. Gouken’s tools have really odd weaknesses that really add up to a character that doesn’t really fit into a solid playstyle. Few characters have the variety, but you can bet theirs are a lot more solid than ours. And nobody is suggesting new tools.
Back to the point that who really has trouble with Gouken? If he were given something like a Ryu backdash, it would solidify his wakeup without destroying matchups. We’re not talking Rose or Makoto status here. Who can’t deal with backdashes?
And I think you are placing too much emphasis on that fact that kongo is 1f. It is a spotty tool that is easily beaten.
You say that, but then advocate EX tatsu hitting low? That would buff Gouken in his weakest area directly moreso than anything else.
And kongo doesn’t ease the pressure of unblockables.
When we whiff tatsu, there’s enough time to build meter AND do a JUMP IN punish. What other DP has that kind of recovery? The numbers don’t lie. The only thing that is comparable in recovery is C.Vipers U1. And we all know that’s pretty goddamn amazing ultra, what is our tatsu? The argument has been done to death. Tatsu does not have a good risk/reward as a tool and thats why the call is to either be buffed or lower its recovery.
Tatsu isn’t a DP.
Why not?? Kongo hit’s on both sides and you don’t have to auto-correct it.
Our biggest problems with kongo is:
1- There is no hit box overlap for hp and mp kongo. (which needs to be buffed)
2- Most Gouken users haven’t put in the time to figure out when to use mp or hp kongo.
@Souchan
that’s all the reply Im going to get? Well, I didn’t really give the rebuttal your argument needed, true. But I am a bit too lazy to flesh it out completely. Maybe another time.
@Iam
In a fully developed game (like ft10, seen enough of a certain setup from the opponent to see when they can go for an unblockable), it becomes a straight guess if the opponent is going to go for it or whiff setup to max punish kongo? Which would be worse? Of course there are other ways to minimize damage like wakeup FA backdash but ours suck and with some opponents it just puts us back in the same bad spot.
I see.
I guess I look at it as at least we have an option to deal with it, other characters have to do something and a lot of the times it’s not good. If you block on the frame that hits you can block most of them.
I guess I try not to complain much, bc Gouken has some hard to deal with set ups on a lot of the cast too.
I would rather see unblockables removed period as well as a lot of the other bs… Gouken is pretty tame compared to some characters though. Amongst the other shit that Viper can do, I saw the other day that she could cancel hk thunder knuckle on wake up and get about 3 frames of invinc.
Truth be told, anyone balanced the wrong direction would be broken or shitty… This game has been out for a long time now so you would think they would get it right if they rebalanced…: one can only hope.